So i’m trying to make more sense of the whole crypto phenomena and I casually read that “China” helped build bitcoin. If this is true and the idea that bitcoin is good in the case of inflation of the U.S dollar, If you’re American Isn’t that like betting against Ourselves? Will the earlier Chinese investors be the most to benefit? and didn’t bitcoin get it’s surge when Covid 19 broke out?
Seems espionage-esque
The terms “China” and “buld” are very loosely being used by the authors of what you are reading. China, as a country, comprises of organizations that control actions, and citizens who act. The control organizations are the PRC (People’s Republic of China), and the CCP (Chinese Communist Party). All members of the PRC are CCP members (but not all CCP are PRC). The term “Build” could mean coding the infrastructure, or simply increasing the supply of BTC by mining. The coding infrastructure was not developed by the PRC–at all. If any citizens of China had any development of the BTC protocol, it would have come much later, and would have been public. I saw, and still see, no evidence of that from BTC’s earliest days. There have been mining organizations in China–although, now China has banned mining.
The upshot is that the security of Bitcoin is not at all connected with the PRC, who are threatened by all independent Crypto-currencies.
If this does not answer your question please post again.
Thanks.
I’m pretty general in using “china”.
People in china better said or parties in china. *something to the effect “china manufactures computers”
Please excuse me and thank you.
I’ll try to rephrase what i was saying, don’t even know if i’m asking anything but i feel i am.
I read people in China were pretty involved in helping bitcoin come along. From 2011/13 up to this year i guess.
I’m aware of the ban.
But up until the ban and *even beyond. *those heavily invested probably relocated.
I find it difficult to believe the parties in china that helped bring bitcoin along for close to 10 years abonded it.
My argument is
Something to the effect
Isn’t there some kind of conflict of interest, though maybe not legally
That the Parties in China who helped bring bitcoin along may be profitting the most from
American economic uncertainties.
From inflation to “political instability”.
Especially with driving factors like covid 19.
*i dont hold China to blame for the pandemic.
It’s questionable if they reacted the right way in the beginning but you can say that about everyone.
But a compare and contrast in a hypothetical is “china” or chinese companies selling vaccines to the u.s and the world if no other country developed their own.
It’s a complex question. And kind of a loaded topic, political.
So, if I am understanding your question, you are concerned that Chinese citizens who bought BTC early (and possibly transacted with it on the network) are now, benefiting from BTC’s maturity as U.S. citizens abandon U.S. fiat currency. This might further give the PRC power to dominate the world economically (or something along those lines).
If this is not capturing what you are asking, then my explanation below won’t be helpful. If it is, then I hope this helps clarify.
I personally don’t, and I am not sure why anyone else would, care what a citizen (of any country) gains by using a blockchain network (like BTC). Remember, the official currency of China is the Yuan (unit of account) and Renminbi (currency). Any funds in BTC that do not go into the official currency are not available to the CCP or PRC. I think that is a good thing. The instability you worry about is more concerning to the PRC, than the U.S., and for good reason.
Chinese funding for companies generally comes from the PRC, and/or foreign investment. Chinese citizens who own BTC are, I would think, unlikely to invest funds in Chinese companies for fear of it being confiscated. That is part of the reason they are in BTC anyway.
I am not worried, and I see no evidence of the PRC benefiting from BTC development, or their citizens (through BTC investment) somehow turning government controlled entities into dominant market players to damage other countries. The PRC may have designs on doing that, but BTC is not helping them, nor will it help them do that.
Your hypothetical, even if it occurred, would not be because of BTC. Or at least I can’t see how it would.
After reading your response again, let me try something else.
You seem to be concerned that a group of Chinese citizens who got into Bitcoin early (“helping bring it along” is a phrase that is hard to parse conceptually in regards to your intended meaning), could be benefiting and might do something nefarious.
I will concede that the pseudo-anonymity, and ubiquity of BTC use could help criminal networks. However, this is not limited to Chinese criminal networks, but criminal networks world wide (to the extent they can make use of BTC). I also think this benefit is diminishing somewhat, with the advancement of blockchain tracking tools.
In the end, I just am not seeing what the concern over “China” and BTC development is. Neither the PRC, nor Chinese citizens played a roll in BTC development or advancement on the coding side. Some did help bring it to the pacific region, and some gained by mining BTC, but that only put them in the PRC’s crosshairs.
Ok, I think I have exhausted the topic at this point.
Once again for you taking the time.
You did give me a bit of clarity. A bit of insight that bitcoin/ other crypto currencies could have attempted to lighten oppression in china.
The subject at hand is pretty intensive. My question may be very premature for cetain crowds.
My observation has been:
In the U.S
Inflation woes comes along with “buy bitcoin.”
I agree inflation is a bad thing.
My argument or being unsettled may be the overall media narrative.
I feel that during the pandemic the U.S has faired alright considering everything the pandemic brought. Businesses closing, new businesses not opening, the pandemic was a huge topic in last years election. From local government to national government we had to evaluate how people were leading us through the pandemic.
Now or in the previous months the popularity of bitcoin seems pretty synonymous with inflation.
*i dont mind some kind of something holding inflation a bit more accountable so kudos to bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies for this.
However i find it counterproductive in overall national moral.
Take a company structure for example. At the risk of sounding pretentious a company like Tesla.
In popular news They have had a bit of turbulance in the past couple months.
If someone within the company started saying let’s look to Ford not as an acquisition but as a migration. A migration of that person and other employees they want to take with them. Let’s say they want to make this decision not primarily because of Ethos but because it would be financially beneficial for the moment. Like they panicked.
This idea is awful for Elon Musk and the rest of Tesla.
People leaving right when the going gets tough.
In China’s unity and with their unchallenged national currency. I feel they have a long term advantage. They are investing in themselves.
They also have a strong presence in Africa and other parts of the world. I hate saying “i read” as if i am passing it on as truth but i read that that African countries may adopt the yuan *a quick google search i just made to refrence showed me 14 African counties are interested in adopting the yuan as a reseve currency.
This gives China a tremendous opportunity to truly be The global leader in my opinion.
All the while Bitcoin has sparked U.S national attention in the light of a “craze”. It seems very immature.
“If we fall into recession bit coin is the thing to have so buy, buy, buy.” That example may be me being satirical. Excuse me. But that’s kind of how i see it.
I also find it ironic that democrats have the reputation for spending. And from a general at best understanding, spending leads to inflation. Republicans were notorious for saying “all Obama wants to do is spend”. What if Obama got behind bitcoin?
Something just seems off.
The U.S has a cool imaginitive approach to a serious question
China has a Serious approach to a serious question.
Im here on a crypto currency forum of Cardano. A company that i think has a great philosophy.
I also have a hightened interest in the greater subject whatever that may be.
Something like the market crash of 2008 brought me here. But casually, i didn’t protest.
In general, currencies allow trading of value. It does not matter what the “unit” for trading occurs in. What matters is that value for value is preserved in the trade. If people were to dump dollars for bitcoin, the unit for trades would be in bitcoin instead of dollars. Even the U.S. govt. could switch to bitcoin for trading.
I don’t think this will happen for a lot of technical reasons. But your “uneasiness” is due to a misunderstanding of how economic trades function. Dumping dollars for a crypto-currency isn’t unpatriotic, or, by itself, harmful to a country. If people are dumping dollars for crypto-currencies, they are fleeing the damage already present in the dollar, or damage they think might arise (most likely caused by central bank inflationary policies, or government confiscation of value through taxation–extra taxation). The decision is made based on what the individual thinks is in his/her best interest.
I am not disagreeing with your comment " they are fleeing the damage already present in the dollar," that’s a spot on observation.
My philosophical beliefs differ on this particular subject
“The decision is made based on what the individual thinks is in his/her best interest.”
In this “it’s every man for himself” attitude where it becomes “unpatriotic” as you put it.
It’s complex. You win some You lose some.
I use to find it eerie seeing the “in god we trust” and the pyramid with the all seeing eye on the dollar bill.
Now it it finally makes sense to me.
*excuse me for cropping or quoting you. It may come off as argumentative but on the contrary.
This has been most enlightening.
I want to point something important out.
“its every man for himself” is not the same as “doing what’s best in your interest.”
two missing phrases may help clarify.
When you say “it’s every man for himself” you betray a missing phrase or implicit idea viz. that it’s ok to run over anybody else in order to get what one desires.
“doing what’s best in your interest” implies that you would determine your interest rationally, which would preclude the former (with the possible exception of the most dire situation, in which case no choice is really a good choice).
I am not sure this discussion pertains much to Bitcoin or crypto-currencies. It seems to be a fishing expedition regarding moral values of those who engage with crypto-currencies. I can’t help there because I only represent myself. However, I do know its possible to be involved with, and interested in crypto-currencies without having condemnation for a country built on constitutional foundations, or toward your fellow man. Crypto-currencies are like any technology, they have potential good and bad uses. Trying to control this new way of transacting is like trying to control communication through the internet. Worrying about it is useless. Diving in to make use of it, or make it better is generally a good thing.
“implicit idea viz. that it’s ok to run over anybody else in order to get what one desires.”
I did tie something together there and had to ask myself where it came from
The enviroment is a big deal to me.
And since the conversation pertains to more or less to bitcoin … from carbon emissions to e waste, that’s where it came from.
Also
And i hate to mention it again because if the opinion is counterintuitive i probably sound like a fool. I’m not trying to have the last word but i like political science and philosophy so i could keep going even by myself.
the devaluation of the u.s dollar and the rise of bitcoin and other crypto currencies is a bit unsettling. Especially since these entities could very well be financially centralized in different places. I know it sounds like a crazy hypothetical but if Osama Bin Laden had heavy interest in bitcoin and no one knew about it i dont feel comfortable with the mayor of New york promoting it.
If it’s introduction would have been playstation or nintendo using bitcoin in the same fashion we exchange dollar for credits at a dave and busters i would think it’s pretty awesome.
But the respect i have for China and the Yuan right now is greater than the respect i have for the private and public market and crypto currencies. *crypto currencies being used as a legitimate currency. Like the Dallas mavericks accepting crypto or tesla accepting crypto.
You can talk it or promote it into existence.
Im trying my best to have and give an objective opinion and identify any negatives before they arise. Without being a pessimist.
Everything in its innocence
Henry ford may not have counted on carbon emmisions and traffic collisions when creating the model t.
I have this horrible feeling that we may be buying into an elaborate trojan horse.
*cyber security was mentioned as one the biggest threats in the 21st century.
Hell, some people blame the sway in elections on social media and foreign entities.
"The enviroment is a big deal to me.
And since the conversation pertains to more or less to bitcoin … from carbon emissions to e waste, that’s where it came from."
Let’s put that in perspective. If you consider that there are firms still making cash registers, POS systems, Brinks trucks… etc. and all of them have full time employees, who drive to work etc. I think you would be shocked at the amount of energy that is consumed each day for …what? Transactions.
That said, you are posting on a Cardano forum that uses “proof of stake” and not “proof of work” like Bitcoin. Eventually, the energy cost to produce transactions will exceed the reward of facilitating those transactions in Bitcoin (there are lots of analyses showing this). So, I don’t think it is sustainable even from an economic standpoint regardless of the environmental consequences. Many who work on, and buy into Cardano share your feelings though regarding the environment. Cardano (Ada), and other crypto-currencies are being developed to replace the “proof of work” blockchains. In this case, the economics and the environmental concerns line up (as you would expect since efficiency is important in both cases).
I don’t understand the concerns of the rest of your message.
I have benefited from this discussion.
I can’t thank you enough.
Hey Trevor,
At the risk of being overzealous and I’ve already took a great deal of your time, could you give this link at the bottom a quick read and post whatever you like as pertains to our discussion and the link.
*not that you are asking i’m from Charlotte, North Carolina. The second biggest banking city in the U.S… home of Hugh McColl the banker who was responsible for the first coast to coast bank, once known as Nation’s Bank, today it is known as Bank of America. i was horrble at math and probably even worse at economics. History, philosophy, social science seems “stick to the wall”.
As my user name indicates i was born in 86. In 1999 textiles moved out of North Carolina and went abroad. I believe what was sold as an oppurtunity for people to manufacture at lower cost inturn actually fascilitated the lack of growth domestically for the common person. The butterfly effect of this i feel contributed to the social unrest we have today. Take the controversy we had with the kneeling for the flag during sporting games. What if manufacturing would have strengthened in the U.S instead of going overseas? *this idea isnt an absolute. I believe plenty of manufacturing could have gone overseas but i feel that we needed to keep a good bit in The U.S for the same reason how China was able to bring up a “middle class” we could of done the same at last with the african american community.
Imagine a guy making a nike shoe, clocking out, going home and watching the game, his favorite player wearing the shoe he just made. What that would do for American unity. It is called the N.F.L or N.B.A.
To take it a bit further now 20 years later the same guy with all of his experience going to an african country with nike and manufacturing there bebefitting at a level where top brands benefited 20 years ago.
What i’m posting is all over the place. Hopefully i can conceptualize what I’m really wanting to say or ask with a bit of your help. Please and thank you.
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/boundless-ushistory/chapter/economic-nationalism/
And anyone else reading if you have any insight please contribute.
This has nothing to do with crypto-currencies. This line has already gone far afield of the “General” nature of Cardano. If you have something in particular “outside” of the Cadano eco-system that may apply to Cardano, or crypto-currencies in general, then it would be appropriate.
Thank you for your interest.
I respect your answer. But ill continue here to think outloud if anybody else finds it relevant. I hope i’m respecting this forum and it’s intended use.
Hilary Clinton gave her opinion recently, something to the effect that either bitcoin or cryptocurrencies were undermining Financial systems. *i’m paraphrasing her.
And i think the fed chair said something to the effect that the u.s had many of different currencies before the civil war.
So the subject of Economic Nationalism as this online learning website put it seems to be appropriate.
Mark cuban said the new name in Los Angeles Arena would be better if the company was headquartered in the U.S or if a U.S company would of claimed the name of the arena, something to that effect.
In recent years AMC, American Multi Cinema was owned by Chinese interest.
The Marvel film Dr. Strange apparently (which i did not see nor did i read the comic) had the origin changed different from the original story. The original took place in Tibet. The chinese backed film did not.
Once again i know im all over the place here.
But im looking for something like American Economic Nationalism in the era of crypto currency.
*The references i made above are to example how things change before you know it.
A general forum for Cardano isn’t really the place to gather comments on news events. There are more appropriate forums for that. If you are interested:
https://cardano.org/governance/
which explains how Cardano is setup to mitigate centralized control of the Cardano blockchain.
Thank you for your interest in Cardano
I’m going to repost what’s below as the subject. But my whole “blah!” feeling of where the hell am i on a subject i know nothing about started with something about china. You helped me get to a much better place.
Here i go again.
American Economic Nationalism in the Era of Crypto. <
If i were to put my opinion/question in a thesis statement it would be something like:
Does the lack of National Unity make the United States vulnerable to being conqured by it’s own devices or indulgences?
As it pertains to cryptocurrencies does the idea of inflation and fear of reccesion prompt the individual to act on behalf of their personal interest at the sacrifice of the greater whole
In connection to
Would decentralization be best executed through the central government or would it defeat the purpose?
I hate to reference hilary clinton and china *respect to them both. especially in a place where it sounds like it would be a conflict of interest but this whole “undermining nations goverments” shouldn’t be feared.
Something like Thomas Pain and the greater idea of “common sense” or Jacobs Later.
There’s a reality people are waking up to and there is a state of shock and uncertainty that should be met face to face.
I became a One World Citizen not too long ago.
I believe in the premise of the United Nations and the Declaration of Human Rights.
I discussed this with a family member who was fearful of this idea of a one world government because of how it would lead to tyranny.
I am a believer that you become what you fear so i think it’s a race between us and them and they dont even know it. In their way we’ll have to get there the hard way, pretty much how it’s been up to this point.
And if you check out the underbelly of youtube and other social media they share the common fear.
But in my opinion the idea of a one world government works on the contrary. It doesent diminish or oppress the idea of sovereignty, community, and nationalism. it emphasizes it.
Im sure there is a person our there who could extract the best part of what im trying to say.