I am pessimistic if there really is something like a consistent “Cardano ethos”. So, you can very well hope that the two or three voices having doubts in this thread are just that: two or three voices. And the larger community will rather follow the hype train wherever it goes (as it does most of the time).
But: Looking at your “high-level architecture” does lead me to support those concerns:
Yes, you are transparent about which components are “centrally hosted by Iagon”, but given their sheer amount, that is not a decentralised system at all.
Yes, you have to do it that way if you want to extract profit, if you want to get back your investments, but it just isn’t decentralised. If Iagon rug-pulls or otherwise goes away I am very much fucked if I have built on top of that.
In classical IPFS, I can run my own node and pin everything that is important there – and my users can do the same to be not even dependent on me and surely not on some centrally hosted third party. Moreover, the IPFS network does not depend that much on some centrally hosted services. It can continue working peer to peer with others taking over even if ipfs.tech/ipfs.io goes down. That is decentralised.
So, even without referring too much to the open/closed source, patent, and ethos topics, that’s not what I would use for a decentralised application that shall be resilient for a long time.
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After reading this thread I am still unsure of the original concerns being an issue, of course it’s great to raise concerns but I would say these ‘concerns’ are more individual ‘concerns’. It’s perfectly normal for a company that’s spent years of research and development to not be fully open sourced especially when they haven’t even launched on mainnet yet. I feel raising this as a concern is not sufficient and generally mis-leading to forum viewers that are not from a technical background which could negatively impact Iagon. Iagon have stated they have plans to open source what is possible once established on mainnet. We have to be realistic here, from a business perspective years of work and research immediately open sourced can be copied and even replicated across other chains being detrimental to Cardano too.
@Zyroxa I wanted to reach out as I feel this thread is actually generally misleading to non technical users, a lot of the points raised by the thread creator and others factually technically incorrect even outside of Iagon and in terms of Dexs being ‘shortlived’ etc this is incorrect. Transactions can remain pending for the lifetime of the Transaction and funds are locked in a smart contract it’s not ‘shortlived’ and a lot of this discussion is generally going off topic. A github project with empty repositories is not a concern it just shows an intention to open source which again is also positive.
I’ve been testing the applications they have built as part of the tester programme over the last few months. I can see considerable progress even based on suggestions I have made. IAGON have also demonstrated potentially the first decentralised website on Cardano even before mainnet. Iagon also have possibly one of the best social media marketing prescenses on Cardano which others will respectfully agree with.
These same ‘concerns’ raised above apply to most projects on Cardano and to single one out I feel makes this thread look targeted so I wanted to add to it.
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Greetings @dpbeaumont,
Thank you for your post.
Yes, I respectfully agree. Iagon’s marketing machine is very effective.
The summary of my original concern from the very first post in this thread is quoted below in bold for your convenience:
I am concerned that the community is getting a distorted view of the current progress and the project’s ability to deliver according to the marketing.
Actually, iagon marketing is targeting viewers that do not have a technical background with lots of handwaving but no technical substance. The following video clip is an example of iagon marketing that targets community members who do not have a technical background.
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Greetings!
I have been meaning to create an account on here for quite some time, but this thread really pushed me to do so as it seems extremely biased.
This is factually incorrect because they are consistently posting development progress, consistently explaining their technical concepts using well structured simple non technical explanations.
If you were to research further and adequately you would see countless evidence of them actually delivering, particulary in the tester updates section on discord. Even their github that you referenced above under the ‘releases’ section that you failed to mention or possibly research you will find continuous releases delivering improvements based on community testing feedback. You will also find the releases are cross platform and if you researched even further and run them. You will see evidence of an end to end application progressing to provide decentralised storage.
Myself and other well respected Cardano community members have been communicating progress based on our own experience over social media.
With regards to delivery, I think the above covers it well, especially a proof of concept decentralised static website they have also facilitated delivery being the first on Cardano before mainnet. If that’s not proof of delivery then what is? Why are you so fixated on targeting a project that has not even hit it’s mainnet launch? But you are very quick to target them with words like ‘ability to deliver’. We should be positive towards innovation and new projects on Cardano, not using language like this, they left Ethereum to build on Cardano as a blockchain of choice, this is fairly unwelcoming behaviour aswell as misleading. I would like to ask the admin to reconsider the substance of this threads content and intent.
In reference to this off the Cardano developer website. ’ **Cardano is a collection of open-source , patent-free protocols.’ You do realise this is referring to Cardano. Not the dapps on Cardano. It’s referring to the Cardano protocols that are not patented right? This is completely out of context.
Based on the above ‘concerns’ and the explanations provided by countless others including myself in this thread. I think it’s fair to say these ‘concerns’ are without merit. They are clearly your own personal views and do not fully allign with the facts listed or even the community experience.
I’ll be honest, it’s disappointing reading a thread like this, this is an example of how we should not act towards new innovation building on Cardano.
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With all due respect @dpbeaumont, your statement is naive.
No rational person will accept an empty github repository as intention to open-source.
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I don’t understand why it is so hard for people to get their head around this:
There is essentially no difference between the base layer protocol and a middle-ware “building block”. Iagon seeks to be middle ware for Cardano. Iagon is seeking to provide a data availability service so that other dapps can build upon it.
If IOG was to provide a similar data availability service, we would all expect it to be open source and patent free. In Cardano, we are trying to build a “web 3” world of interoperable building blocks. We don’t want “platform risk” embedded in our web 3 world of building blocks. This very much includes the data availability building block.
In other words, what Iagon is seeking to provide needs to be viewed differently to an end user dapp at the top of the stack. Iagon is seeking to provide a middle-ware building block towards the bottom of the stack.
Cardano is about providing a web 3 world devoid of centralised control and “middle men”. If you build upon a patented and closed source middle-ware building block then you are handing control of your dapp to those centralised “middle men” that control the patent and the closed source code. Any subsequent dapp builders that build upon your dapp are in turn further embedding this platform risk.
I personally hope that most dapp builders are better informed and do understand the concept of “platform risk”. Hopefully Cardano developers will shun building upon a closed source building block which uses a patented API.
The people on this forum arguing in favour of Iagon’s patents and closed source code are invested in Iagon’s success. I hold no position, positive or negative in Iagon. I just want a “web 3” world devoid of platform risk and rent seeking “middle men” who have the intention of wielding patented APIs against me in the future.
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We might not have to worry so much about dapps built upon Iagon’s patented data availability technology exposing us to platform risk. In this interview with Big Pey, Charles talks about building a partner chain for data availability.
He talks about integrating mithril into the Cardano ledger and exposing that in the block header or body for smart contracts. This can become a hook for data availability.
Quote:
“But actually I think the best option is for a partner chain to evolve which hooks into BLS and these primitives and gives you a very rich decentralised storage layer which has different storage properties that are rent based. Some things are immutable and permanent, some things are ephemeral and temporary and you can create an economy around that and that becomes something that every dapp can see and access.”
From this point in the video: https://youtu.be/Ki-HSHgtIGk?t=1855
With no patents involved, because IOG is philosophically opposed to software patents, as I assume most people are in the Cardano community.
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Well, apparently Iagon has been released on mainnet and all the twitter inflencers are crowing about it.
How can nobody be pointing out that something as fundamental as a storage building block must be open source and patent free???
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I just read this entire thread and would like to thank @Terminada @johnshearing @Eystein_Hansen and @Navjit_Dhaliwal for their thoughtful discussion. The thoughts and opinions expressed here gave me a lot to think about.
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Well it is good to know that you are still around and reading the thread @Eystein_Hansen . The silence is deafening.
I understand that crypto has been in a brutal bear market and that people are too scared to call a spade a spade for fear of hurting their own bags. But, sometimes it is necessary to point out when things are headed in the wrong direction.
I also commented on @astroboysoup 's thread regarding his video about Iagon which was titled: “The New Filecoin, Decentralised Storage! Iagon Launches on Mainnet”
Iagon cannot be considered decentralised when it has closed source code and patented APIs. Moreover, any dapps that use Iagon “middleware” for file storage will in turn cede any decentralisation to the Iagon patent controllers. Iagon is like a Trojan horse where anything built upon it will have it’s decentralisation undermined.
This is what Charles Hoskinson said about patents in his testimony to congress:
- “The power of blockchain technology is its universality and permissionless model for innovation. True competition exists when everyone has equal access to markets. My company, IOG, has never had to pay a royalty, file a patent application, or acquire a license to pursue blockchain-related business development in countries as diverse as Ethiopia to Mongolia.”
Then there is this 2017 IOHK blog:
- “This is a recognition of the pioneering work that IOHK is doing in advancing the science of cryptocurrencies, producing research that will all be open source and patent-free and progress the industry as a whole.”
And this 2020 IOHK blog:
- “We have produced more than 60 peer-reviewed academic papers, which have become an open-source, patent-free resource for everyone.”
And this succinct 2022 Charles Hoskinson tweet:
- “If it’s patent free and open source, then I’ll take a look at it”
And this is what the cardano.org website says at the bottom of the page:
- “We, alongside our community and partners, are defining a new future: a decentralized future without intermediaries, in which power is returned to the individual.”
“WITHOUT INTERMEDIARIES”
Software patents are the very antithesis of decentralisation. Software patents cede control to hidden intermediaries which gives them the power to exploit us in the future. This is exactly the opposite of what we are trying to build into Cardano’s financial operating system.
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I am around just busy configuring servers for supporting a decentralized filesystem on Cardano with all the potential benefits that will have for the Cardano ecosystem.
Only thing patented here is a marketplace not a l1 blockchain as far as I can see. Should we not allow companies to build on Cardano if they have patents? This would mean the blockchain would be permissive not permissionless. Anyhow we are just repeating previous arguments so no need to add to it. You can reread my counterarguments if you like.
This thread started with a post concerning the progress of Iagon and calling it malware. Yet here we are with mainnet launched on christmas eve. Sure bugs and problems to tackle but hopefully Iagon will keep improving.
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Who would trust their valuable data to this system?
There is no code for the community to look at so how can we know what the system is doing with our data.
With regard to security of our data?
How can we know if our valuable data will persist.
How can we be sure our private data is not being captured and read.
How can we be sure there is no backdoor method to put the shards together again.
There is no way to know if your data shards are stored redundantly or if they are just in one place.
This is not registered with Windows or with various virus protection packages, there is no code to review, and as far as I know the code has not been audited by a reputable provider so we don’t know what the executables might do.
So we have a closed source project that somehow got a broad patent that the community is asked to trust with their valuable private data and YouTube influencers are not asking any questions.
I continue to have concerns and choose not to follow the herd.
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This argument is intellectually dishonest and seeks to gloss over the real problem.
Nobody is trying to prevent anyone from using the blockchain. By all means use your own proprietary code and be a patent troll if that is what rocks your world.
But, don’t expect to embed your patented proprietary software as middle-ware, or to make it a critical dependency to be used by other app services. Furthermore, any apps that are built upon patented building blocks cannot themselves be considered “decentralised”. Iagon is like a Trojan horse where if it becomes a part of any component in a chain of building block dependencies, then that entire chain becomes non-decentralised.
Since Iagon’s entire use case is to provide a middle-ware file storage solution, then it cannot, and must not, advertise itself as “decentralised”. Iagon is not a “decentralised” file storage solution, because Iagon is not decentralised. Patenting the middle-ware APIs is a repudiation of the very essence of what decentralisation means.
Now, if Iagon changes all it’s advertising and instead says that it is a “centralised, proprietary, patent protected, file storage solution”, highlighting all the platform risk that this entails for any users of it’s service, then I will go quietly.
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The data only exists to the provider who combines the shards. Nodes dont have access to the actual data either. This has nothing to do with open source / closed sourced but with how storage is distributed in a decentralized way. Iagons patent is on the marketplace connecting providers with storage nodes.
Same problem if its open source or closed source. I recommend using multiple providers as I have argued before.
You cant with open source either as there could be 3rd party on top of the open source provided. In any case feel free to open a shard of a iagon node storage and see if you see anything sensible there.
That’s a fair point. But it would be the same with open source and 3rd party code on top of what is provided in open source coding. Maybe an audit could say something about this.
I believe code had an audit but maybe better Iagon answers that one themselves.
I have argued relying on any storage provider in isolation is a critical dependency be it open source or not you should use multiple ideally for dapps as open source projects can close down file providing as well.
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Thanks for your response @Eystein_Hansen
I don’t see anyway to verify your statement. Why would the community trust that you are correct?
You can’t know if an encrypted message is has been backdoored simply by looking at it.
It makes no sense for the community to trust that argument.
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In Australia there is this organisation called the ACCC which protects consumers against businesses and individuals that make false and misleading statements. You should check out their website. I am sure the USA has a similar entity.
Calling Iagon a “decentralised filesystem” is false and misleading. Furthermore, such statements could be seen as an inducement specifically calculated to expose an unwitting user to future platform risk.
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Oh its for sure decentralized. Thats like saying a dex is not decentralized because the dapp is hosted in a central place. Still the underlying infrastructure is decentralized for example if open to any batchers to join and process. Same with Iagon. Running nodes as we speak so is rest of community. Iagon does not control the shards or providers. Anyhow new years eve so wish you all happy new year whatever viewpoints you have.
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We have no evidence to believe this statement is true.
Iagon is a patented, closed source blackbox.
There is no way to know what is being done with the data or if the data is safe.
Thanks @Eystein_Hansen,
Best wishes for a wonderful New Year to you too.
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This is what particularly angers me about Iagon. That statement is false and misleading.
Such statements are used to enable Iagon to weave itself into the fabric of Cardano’s financial operating system of interoperable building blocks. Iagon seeks to become a dependency of many blockchain apps. Then later, after it has become “trusted”, it can use it’s closed source code and patented APIs to hijack dependent apps, holding their stored data for ransom.
The web 3 version of ransomware. Merry Christmas and happy new year Cardano. What a beautiful Trojan horse you have been gifted.
Staying decentralised is hard and requires constant vigilance against the forces of centralisation.
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If you think about it a bit more you know that it’s not about closed or open source it is about making sure to have multiple providers so that you do not rely on any single point of failure. I have tried to convey this point that also open-source storage can disappear at any time. By the way, you can see the swagger ui with the api calls and you can test out everything as a provider currently. So for me this point is a bit moot and I dont want to go in circles on it. Anyway happy new year 
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