# Is there a cost to changing delegation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Stake Delegation\ **Created:** [12 March 2021 10:42 UTC](https://forum.cardano.org/t/is-there-a-cost-to-changing-delegation/53201 "2021-03-12T10:42:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Gaaike](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.cardano.org/gaaike/32/29794_2.png) [@Gaaike](https://forum.cardano.org/u/Gaaike)\ **Post date:** [12 March 2021 10:42 UTC](https://forum.cardano.org/t/is-there-a-cost-to-changing-delegation/53201/1 "2021-03-12T10:42:49Z")
I’m a newbie and as I first connected to daedalus i just put my ada in the top-performing staking pool. I see lots of reasons now to support smaller pools. Is there a cost in reward to change delegation? ---
**Author:** ![Jasper](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.cardano.org/jasper/32/26925_2.png) [@Jasper](https://forum.cardano.org/u/Jasper)\ **Post date:** [12 March 2021 10:50 UTC](https://forum.cardano.org/t/is-there-a-cost-to-changing-delegation/53201/2 "2021-03-12T10:50:59Z")
Nope, no cost. You pay a transaction fee when changing, but thats typically only around 0.17ADA. Should be clearly visible from daedalus before submitting. ---
**Author:** ![IPIB\_Pool](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.cardano.org/ipib_pool/32/30593_2.png) [@IPIB\_Pool](https://forum.cardano.org/u/IPIB_Pool)\ **Post date:** [12 March 2021 11:09 UTC](https://forum.cardano.org/t/is-there-a-cost-to-changing-delegation/53201/3 "2021-03-12T11:09:30Z")
No cost, the 2 ADA deposit is taken only for the first delegation. If you are looking into small pools with a mission, I operate one. Ask if interested. Happy staking! ---
**Author:** ![tomdx](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.cardano.org/tomdx/32/44498_2.png) [@tomdx](https://forum.cardano.org/u/tomdx)\ **Post date:** [12 March 2021 12:45 UTC](https://forum.cardano.org/t/is-there-a-cost-to-changing-delegation/53201/4 "2021-03-12T12:45:01Z")
@Gaaike yes, there is a cost in reward. Lets say you delegate to a pool with 34m - that pool would mint 34 blocks / epoch. For each block the pool receives a total of 1k reward. The pool would therefore get 34k of rewards. First, the operator cost is deducted (i.e. 340 ADA) second the pool margin is deducted - lets assume that is 0%. ```auto 340 / 34k => 0,01 ``` With such a pool, there would be 1% of rewards that cannot be distributed proportionally. Now, you delegate to a small pool with 500k. That pool will make a block every other epoch. When it makes a block, it will also receive 1k of which 340 ADA are deducted. This is … ```auto 340 / 1k => 0,34 ``` Now, instead of 1% there are 34% of the rewards that cannot be distributed to the delegators. The larger the pool, the smaller that slice of pizza that gets deducted before proportional distribution. ---
**Author:** ![IPIB\_Pool](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.cardano.org/ipib_pool/32/30593_2.png) [@IPIB\_Pool](https://forum.cardano.org/u/IPIB_Pool)\ **Post date:** [12 March 2021 13:38 UTC](https://forum.cardano.org/t/is-there-a-cost-to-changing-delegation/53201/5 "2021-03-12T13:38:13Z")
The OP asked about the cost to change delegation, not about the costs of the pool. To change delegation the only cost is the TX fee of about 0.17ADA. Also your calculations are misleading and not correct (in your example a big pool yield is 7.3% which is not possible), IMHO. It looks like a big pool gives 34 times the rewards of a small one, which is not true. A big pool yield is 5-5.5% APY. A small pool with less than 1.2M is about 4-4.5%. There is a difference, but is not as big as you imply. ---
**Author:** ![tomdx](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.cardano.org/tomdx/32/44498_2.png) [@tomdx](https://forum.cardano.org/u/tomdx)\ **Post date:** [12 March 2021 14:36 UTC](https://forum.cardano.org/t/is-there-a-cost-to-changing-delegation/53201/6 "2021-03-12T14:36:13Z")
> [@IPIB\_Pool](#): > > The OP asked about the cost to change delegation He asked: “Is there a cost in reward to change delegation?” IMHO, it is important to communicate the principal. The specific maths can be done when needed. ---
**Author:** ![IPIB\_Pool](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.cardano.org/ipib_pool/32/30593_2.png) [@IPIB\_Pool](https://forum.cardano.org/u/IPIB_Pool)\ **Post date:** [12 March 2021 14:38 UTC](https://forum.cardano.org/t/is-there-a-cost-to-changing-delegation/53201/7 "2021-03-12T14:38:02Z")
I apologize, I missed the word reward. ---
**Author:** ![tomdx](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.cardano.org/tomdx/32/44498_2.png) [@tomdx](https://forum.cardano.org/u/tomdx)\ **Post date:** [12 March 2021 16:27 UTC](https://forum.cardano.org/t/is-there-a-cost-to-changing-delegation/53201/8 "2021-03-12T16:27:23Z")
Lets do this properly, out of interest … In epoch 251 there were [16,24m](https://cardanoscan.io/) rewards distributed. That makes … ```auto 16.240.000 / 21.600 => 751.85 Reward / Block ``` Using our (simplified) example from above, the large pool would make … ```auto 73 x 34 x 751.85 => 1.866.096 p.a. -73 x 340 => -24.820 ----------------------------- 1.841.276 ``` Lets say your stake is 20k out of that 34m, your annual delegator reward would be … ```auto 20k x 1.841.276 / 34.000k => 1.083 p.a. => 1.083 / 20k => 5,42% ROA ``` ========================================================================== Now the small pool … ```auto 0,5 x 73 x 751.85 => 27.443 p.a -0,5 x 73 x 340 => -12.410 ---------------------------- 15.033 ``` Your stake is again 20k out of 500k ```auto 20k x 15.033 / 500k => 601 p.a => 3.0% ``` The cost in reward would be: `1.083 - 601 => 482 p.a.` 44.5% less than delegation to the large pool. ---
**Author:** ![IPIB\_Pool](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.cardano.org/ipib_pool/32/30593_2.png) [@IPIB\_Pool](https://forum.cardano.org/u/IPIB_Pool)\ **Post date:** [12 March 2021 16:48 UTC](https://forum.cardano.org/t/is-there-a-cost-to-changing-delegation/53201/9 "2021-03-12T16:48:38Z")
The math is ok. Where did you get the total rewards for E251? The rewards per block seems lower than the actual ones. From adapools I see 880ADA per block in epoch 251. With that number the APY are 6.3% vs 4.0% for big and small pools. ---
**Author:** ![Dheeraj\_Singh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.cardano.org/dheeraj_singh/32/28593_2.png) [@Dheeraj\_Singh](https://forum.cardano.org/u/Dheeraj_Singh)\ **Post date:** [12 March 2021 19:44 UTC](https://forum.cardano.org/t/is-there-a-cost-to-changing-delegation/53201/10 "2021-03-12T19:44:08Z")
As of now, it is 0.17 ADA. If you are looking for a stake pool, you can try delegating some of your ada to my stake pool, ticker is “JUDH”. It’s a very small pool though, but i am actively trying to grow it. Small stake pools have less probability of creating a block, but if they do, the rewards are huge, both for the pool operator and the delegator ---
**Author:** ![Gaaike](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.cardano.org/gaaike/32/29794_2.png) [@Gaaike](https://forum.cardano.org/u/Gaaike)\ **Post date:** [13 March 2021 18:09 UTC](https://forum.cardano.org/t/is-there-a-cost-to-changing-delegation/53201/11 "2021-03-13T18:09:18Z")
Wow, that’s an eleborate answer. I’ll probably still switch to a smaller pool. But it’s good to know. ---
**Author:** ![Alexd1985](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.cardano.org/alexd1985/32/23759_2.png) [@Alexd1985](https://forum.cardano.org/u/Alexd1985)\ **Post date:** [13 March 2021 18:15 UTC](https://forum.cardano.org/t/is-there-a-cost-to-changing-delegation/53201/12 "2021-03-13T18:15:08Z")
@Gaaike why? Ur actual pool doesn’t offer rewards to u? Sorry I read. ”switch _from a_ smaller pool” Congrats for ur decision… on long term you will receive the same ~5-5,5% rewards; Support small pools, support the decentralisation! Cheers, ---
**Author:** ![IPIB\_Pool](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.cardano.org/ipib_pool/32/30593_2.png) [@IPIB\_Pool](https://forum.cardano.org/u/IPIB_Pool)\ **Post date:** [13 March 2021 21:04 UTC](https://forum.cardano.org/t/is-there-a-cost-to-changing-delegation/53201/13 "2021-03-13T21:04:42Z")
Great choice. Support small and independent pools! Happy staking! ---
**Author:** ![Karlaz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.cardano.org/karlaz/32/59727_2.png) [@Karlaz](https://forum.cardano.org/u/Karlaz)\ **Post date:** [20 March 2021 22:55 UTC](https://forum.cardano.org/t/is-there-a-cost-to-changing-delegation/53201/14 "2021-03-20T22:55:16Z")
Hello Alexd1985, how much offer your pool for 10000 ADA delegated to your pool? ---
**Author:** ![Alexd1985](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.cardano.org/alexd1985/32/23759_2.png) [@Alexd1985](https://forum.cardano.org/u/Alexd1985)\ **Post date:** [20 March 2021 23:08 UTC](https://forum.cardano.org/t/is-there-a-cost-to-changing-delegation/53201/15 "2021-03-20T23:08:41Z")
I can’t predict on short term because block assignment is like a lottery and differ from epoch to epoch ( for example 2 epochs ago I had 0 last epoch 7 and this epoch 4…) but on long term (1year) all pools BIG or small should provide the same ~5-6% rewards as long the pools creating blocks… Cheers, ---
**Author:** ![Karlaz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.cardano.org/karlaz/32/59727_2.png) [@Karlaz](https://forum.cardano.org/u/Karlaz)\ **Post date:** [20 March 2021 23:36 UTC](https://forum.cardano.org/t/is-there-a-cost-to-changing-delegation/53201/16 "2021-03-20T23:36:09Z")
How many ADA per 10000ADA delegated per block in exact numbers per epoch? How I can delegate to u from Trezor Wallet Model T? ---
**Author:** ![tomdx](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.cardano.org/tomdx/32/44498_2.png) [@tomdx](https://forum.cardano.org/u/tomdx)\ **Post date:** [21 March 2021 06:42 UTC](https://forum.cardano.org/t/is-there-a-cost-to-changing-delegation/53201/17 "2021-03-21T06:42:49Z")
You can query the annualized performance of any pool like this [https://dynamicstrategies.io/crewardcalculator/pool1qqenhz258k5k9nyjull6gkzg7s4f3ae8v7qxwpegeef9v0nsy3e](https://dynamicstrategies.io/crewardcalculator/pool1qqenhz258k5k9nyjull6gkzg7s4f3ae8v7qxwpegeef9v0nsy3e) There is indeed what some would say “a considerable cost” in delegating to a smaller pool. A detailed calculation of this is [over here](https://forum.cardano.org/t/is-there-a-cost-to-changing-delegation/53201/4). Alex is right, the total award for a given stake is more or less constant for all pools. This is however only true, if you own the pool and can also keep the pool rewards - as a delegator you won’t. The pool rewards (i.e. what the owner can keep) comes in two parts. #1 a fix cost (i.e. 340 ADA) #2 a variable margin. Lets say you delegate to a pool with 0% margin, so we can ignore the latter. The fix cost is the distinguishing factor here. For a constant block reward a pool will receive, lets say, 750 ADA / block. These 340 ADA will get subtracted from this for the first block in every epoch. Before the rest can get proportionally distributed to the delegators. If a pool only makes 1 block / epoch, delegators loose 340/750 =\> 45% of the rewards to the pool owner. For a saturated pool (i.e. 64m) this would be 340/(60\*750) =\> 0.76% In simple terms, the smaller the slice of the fix cost from the total reward, the larger the proportional delegator reward. There is currently lots of discussion around this fix cost, because 6x340 =\> 2040 ADA / month is way more than pool owner should need to run two simple servers. If you want to maximize your reward, you’d want to delegate to a big pool - the bigger the better (but not saturated). If you’re looking for a purpose pool that does some good for the world and you’re willing to give a (small) cut for that, you would want to shop around a little. Alex’s pool is a good choice for that - he has won a reward with this (small) charity pool. ---
**Author:** ![POOLG](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.cardano.org/poolg/32/30084_2.png) [@POOLG](https://forum.cardano.org/u/POOLG)\ **Post date:** [21 March 2021 11:44 UTC](https://forum.cardano.org/t/is-there-a-cost-to-changing-delegation/53201/18 "2021-03-21T11:44:00Z")
That’ correct and also sad at the same time. That’s why we decided to share our operator rewards with our biggest delegators as part of a virtual cooperative. ---
**Author:** ![tomdx](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.cardano.org/tomdx/32/44498_2.png) [@tomdx](https://forum.cardano.org/u/tomdx)\ **Post date:** [21 March 2021 12:04 UTC](https://forum.cardano.org/t/is-there-a-cost-to-changing-delegation/53201/19 "2021-03-21T12:04:02Z")
Yes, I also believe that 2040 ADA is way too much for healthy pool operations. ASTOR likes, to reward it’s loyal delegators through [monthly dividends](https://forum.cardano.org/t/astor-has-payed-out-the-first-dividend-to-loyal-delegators). ---
**Author:** ![Alexd1985](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.cardano.org/alexd1985/32/23759_2.png) [@Alexd1985](https://forum.cardano.org/u/Alexd1985)\ **Post date:** [21 March 2021 15:42 UTC](https://forum.cardano.org/t/is-there-a-cost-to-changing-delegation/53201/20 "2021-03-21T15:42:30Z")
If u are looking to maximize your profit feel free to delegate with other pools Cheers, [Next page](https://forum.cardano.org/t/is-there-a-cost-to-changing-delegation/53201.md?page=2)