Thats sounds correct (at this point I really struggle with the technicalities). So other than the FTS algo being generated by skill, perhaps the distribution of reward at this point is prioritised or penalised by the proximity/distance of your pixel to the ball or similar - so providing a function on top of PRNG.
That might work actually - PRNG + ‘skill’ as a function. Well, if this ever becomes an issue, I think it can be tackled at that point :). You brought up good points here. Beats any “when moon/lambo” topics.
Thanks, interesting to delve into it outside my own head! Thanks for the help understanding the more technical side.
- A basic thing you forget is, that your reward wouldnt increase, even if you know at which pool the next block is “found”… Let that sink for a moment.
Real Condition: Some pool ( named [ABCD] ) has 10million ADA stacked and the last block was found 10hours ago. Now, bc. you are a good boy, know that the next block is found at this pool. You then delegate your stake to this pool and here it comes. When the block is found you get as litttle to nothing, because all others in that pool contributet way more then you at that time. Simple mathematics, and thats what happening in all pools no mather if they are POS or POW.
Thats they main reason why a gov cant declare mining or staking as gambling. bc everyone gets the amount based on the work he did and no one can earn more by simply gambling/guessing about what pool will find the next block.
- :Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as “the stakes”) on an event with an uncertain outcome, with the primary intent of winning money or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements be present: consideration, risk (chance), and a prize )
- uncertain outcome ( NO - you cant lose or win, your ADA are staked to secure the network from attacks and executing contracts, as a reward for your “work” you get a new block )
- consideration ( NO - you can, but it wouldnt get you more money )
- risk ( NO - you cant lose anything )
- prize( YES - dependent on your time and ada )
2 Likes
As mentioned earlier though, if I applied this to a raffle in the real world without having a skill based action or alternatively a free entry route, it doesn’t matter if I have put the chosen ticket towards a task to complete, that merely looks like an attempt to separate chance from the equation but it is still there and therefore it isn’t something I could rely upon no matter how complex the task, therefore whatever I was doing would be illegal.
As you say this is all based on work done and you cannot earn more by simply gambling or guessing what pool will find the next block - but holding more ADA to stake automatically gives me more chance of being selected to do the work, just like holding more lottery tickets gives me more chance of holding a winning ticket.
Also, as mentioned earlier, being a form of gaming/gambling isn’t necessarily a bad thing, it adds clarity and the tax implications of gambling whether legal or illegal mean zero tax on rewards in certain geo’s.
Edit - to clarify, once selected there is no element of skill by the individual at this point or judgement in POS afaik to receive rewards.
Yes it may induce to confusion in that sense but in this case it referes to the mathematical function that serves to the purpose to give randomness ( can’t not be guessed otherwise the protocol would be insecure )
You’re not gambling here, it’s cryptography
If there was no financial gain based on chance then I think it would be very clear, but this isn’t the case. I still don’t see the difference between this and a raffle (which is probably the closest comparison) eg the raffle I ran had over xxx,xxx tickets and the winner was selected by RNG each ticket had to be validated to include a level of skill and judgement or it was void.
I suppose my test is if this idea can be converted into a real world model or not, so far I cannot see how it is compatible eg financial gain for a ticket holder determined by random number generator = illegal.
I realise I am late to this discussion, however I just wanted to comment.
-
While the term “lottery” may be used in some Cardano documentation or discussions. I suspect it is used to help simplify people’s understanding of how the process works and does not fall within the definition of a lottery where people buy a ticket in the hope of winning a prize.
-
Even if some messed up legal jurisdiction decided that the Cardano protocol was using an actual lottery, how would they impose their legal will on it? Pool operators would just move offshore.
-
If projects tried to preempt all possible obscure interpretations that legal jurisdictions tried to impose, then nothing would get built.
I think at the end of the day it is fair to say that it is highly unlikely that any jurisdiction will try to make this claim.
To take the analogy from @Donnybaseball one step further.
If I put the call out for 100 plumbers to attend (at no cost to them) so I could pick one at random to do the work I needed done, then if 50 of the plumbers worked for company A, 20 worked for company B, 10 worked for company C and 5 each worked for companies D & E, then each company would have different chances of being selected due to the their employee stake.
When a plumber is eventually selected and she performs the work, then the “reward” is passed back to the company that it then uses towards paying all of its employees who provided stake.
If this analogy holds then your concern about conducting an illegal “lottery” could apply to many more areas of business/life.
Thanks Phil
All good points, I guess my concern is about actually how obscure this is. There is obviously a lot of bias on my side after using such a similar mechanism and having to deal with a lot of legal scrutiny to ensure everything is legal.
I do also think it is really interesting in how it could provide advantage to POS over POW for tax purposes, I wonder if a holder could argue they were gambling in these terms when submitting returns.