What would you put into a Cardano Constitution?

Greetings @Foxyepi

I think I have argued quite passionately in my post above why the Cardano treasury should never borrow, lend, hold anything but ADA, or do anything with the funds besides donate to charity and make purchases which directly benefit the protocol and the community.

Satoshi Nakamoto himself would agree that the problem with world governments is that they have been captured by the central banks and the various industrial complexes which keep the central banks in power.

If fact, Satoshi put the following in the Bitcoin genisis block:

00000080 01 04 45 54 68 65 20 54 69 6D 65 73 20 30 33 2F …EThe Times 03/
00000090 4A 61 6E 2F 32 30 30 39 20 43 68 61 6E 63 65 6C Jan/2009 Chancel
000000A0 6C 6F 72 20 6F 6E 20 62 72 69 6E 6B 20 6F 66 20 lor on brink of
000000B0 73 65 63 6F 6E 64 20 62 61 69 6C 6F 75 74 20 66 second bailout f
000000C0 6F 72 20 62 61 6E 6B 73 FF FF FF FF 01 00 F2 05 or banks

The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks

So if we are to be true to the original vision of Satoshi then we must use the Cardano Constitution to protect us both from the central banks and from becoming like the central banks.

I have made detailed arguments in my post above.
I would be grateful to hear your arguments explaining why you think the Cardano treasury should be allowed to do the things the central banks and Blackrock(s) do or engage in practices that would allow the Cardano treasury and our community to fall victim to these institutions. I would like to know why you think we should do anything at all like selling naked calls, shorting, borrowing, lending, or holding any asset in the treasury besides ADA. I would further like to know why we should not have constitutional amendments which clearly forbid these activities.

Much thanks in advance for your response.

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Think we should not take on unlimited risk investments like naked calls. Or selling short

Im on the fence when it comes to taking on debt, issuing debt and lending and borrowing because of conflict of interest and risk concerns.

Other investments though? why not provide liquidy to a stable token or stake to a stability pool?

Having 1.5b ada just sit there and not get any yeild is ridiculous. I do empathize with your concerns but it would be foolish to not use the treasury as a tool to grow itself and compound and to support the very things that are built on top of cardano. And im guessing the majority of pool operators and ada holders would agree.
Having it sit there is somewhat noble and honorable but also somewhat backwards.

Were going to give all this ada away to people and teams that will do what they please with it but not take control of our own stake and put it to work? Seems somewhat backwards. But just my opinion, i dont represent anyone but myself and open to discuss. I really do believe we have a chance to make things better and avoid the same mistakes as blackrock or a trad govt.

But to say we cant allow other tokens in the treasury means we can accept donations from people or entities or insitutions, which is restricting so need to be careful with such language

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I think to your point though advising or select a money manager or using thebtreasury for investing may be considered something like a fiduciary responsbility and these things can open the door to regulators

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Greetings @fox

Yes, this surely leads to corruption.

Which ones and how much for each? Who decides? Individuals? How does this not lead to corruption as well?

Should we put it to a vote?
There is already a market to buy votes on Catalyst in order to steal from the Cardano treasury!
We need to protect our community from this kind of corruption not add more on top of it.

No one said just let it sit there.
The purpose of the treasury is not to increase the size of the treasury.
That’s the way bankers think.
The purpose of the treasury is to grow the use and utility of the ADA token.
That is another way of saying increase the value of the ADA token for all holders in an honest and sustainable way.
To grow the value of the ADA token in a non-zero sum game where everybody is a winner.

The purpose of the Cardano treasury is to support Cardano’s mission of banking the unbanked, giving citizens control of their own money, decentralizing monetary power and influence so that humans can live in freedom and prosperity.
In other words, give humanity an alternative to the Blackrocks and central banks, as opposed to becoming like them and doing what they do.

First off the ADA in the treasury gets yeild simply by existing. That is why many hold ADA.
Secondly, exchanging ADA for anything else is betting against our own project and betting against other ADA holders.

Me too. Lets start by not doing the things they do.
Let’s put amendments in our constitution that prevent us from becoming the like the central banks when our citizens lose their principles by the lure of easy money and central bank influence.

No one is going to donate to the Cardano treasury.
But in the event they do, the asset should be sold in exchange for ADA and then put in the treasury.

Yes, not just regulators, but the central banks and the Blackrocks too.
Most all world governments have been completely captured and enslaved by debt to the central banks and the supporting industrial complexes that keep them in power.
Let’s not be captured by the central banks and let’s not become like them either.
We need constitutional amendments to protect us from the temptation of borrowing and lending so the treasury can be used for it’s intended purpose - increasing the use, utility, and value of the ADA token so as to provide an alternative to centralized power.

There are definitely alot of concerns. Sadly a lot of these things will happen whether its in the constitution or not.

People who go for Catalyst funding sometimes make promises. Perhaps to hold the ada for a certain amount of time. Maybe use the ada to provide liquidy. They could offer to borrow from the treasury and lend it out again and give the treasury back a return. This might help them get catalyst votes. They could pledge to use the funds for everyones benefit instead of just keeping it for themselves or sell it to fund their project. So this crosses into the idea of being strategic with the treasruy funds. Rather than hand it out for projects to do whatever with. We choose projects that promise to provide value, a tangible and measruable return. We are naturally incentivised to pick a proposal that does this rather than one that does not and it may be in our best interest to do so.

But to answer some of your questions, i think if it were to happen, it would be by a vote. And would be a small amount managed by a selected group. Kept transparent to the community to watch. The people would vote yes becuase it boosts ada value, utility and the community as a whole.

People and organizations donate to charities and members based organizations all the time for tax write offs. Im sure dreps will too, it could be a selfless act to attract deligates. Companies and institutions do this in mass. So to turn that away is not likely something a successful dao would do. But to hold it or sell it? Idk maybe leave it up to some pros or vote.

Also the treasury may have a weakening rate of deposit overtime. There is enough in the treasury to allocate to different purposes and have different departments with their own expertise and allocation of ada to work with. Some long term. Short term. For rnd. For security. For education. For risk on and off.

Still alot to talk about. There must be a call we can hop on and im sure theres alot we can learn from so many smart people from all over.

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Greetings @Foxyepi,
I appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation.

You think the constitution makes no difference because you see that the central banks and the Blackrocks have infitrated our governments and ignore our constitutions.

Four provisions will protect the Cardano constitution and protect our government from being captured by the banks like all the others.

If these four provisions are written into the Cardano Constitution then we will never be captured by the central banks and supporting industrial complexes as almost all other governments have been captured.

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Youll never see or know all the wallets and assets for the cc members. They could easily take bribes in cash or tokens and no one would know. And paying them gives them more incentive, which is just as bad as some of the things you are warning against. I do believe they should be compensated but they wont give up all their investments like wmt or indy or iag, and some of the other projects they are bulding to be a cc member. They deserve freedom like the rest of us. Not freedom to be corrupt. Just freedom.

The cc members will also be part of daos on other projects. They will also be spos. Think your points are noble, but theyre not going to live like monks or philopsher kings like we might dream.

Also banks and institutions can buy up ada and vote just like anyone else. Dreps can be annonymous so you dont know if bankers and blackrock are dreps or spos.

Giving out funds to proposals that offer investment-like strategies and returns to the treasury is prudent, and competitive in nature. Its arguably the same as the treasury investing directly.

for example, if its unconstitutional to invest treasury funds then isnt it unconstitutional to give funds to catalyst proposals if they promise to use some of the ada they get from funding to support a stability pool? Or provide liquidity. Or lend it out or even borrow it. With the promise to share profits to the treasury?

Instead they have to sell the ada they get for themselves? Just seems like were not going to be able to avoid these sort of investment-like activities from happening.

Well be putting the treasury to work in these ways because we are going to be funding projects that are going to be creating value for us. They will make promises and get votes becuase they will be putting the ada they get from funding to work. So its actually worth it to invest treasury funds with them, because they are smarter and more responsible and generous than the competition and keep it working and keep it in house. Instead of spending it on themselves.

But then well say we have to “limit treasury investing”? Sounds good in principle but you can see how its unavoidable because if we are going to be giving it away, we should be giving it away to people that maximise value and are most responsible and most generous and noble.

Maybe the best way to put it into perspective is through and example.

Who do you vote for here?

A. Give me 1m ada and ill go build some new thing for us and feed myself while i work and pay my rent with it.

B. Give me 1m ada and ill provide liquidy to this stable coin, and stake some to this stability pool. Ill loan the profits out, keep it all staking to xyz pool.
Ill return 5% back to the treasury in the next 6 months and another 5% each year for the next 5 years. And ill build this new thing for us in the meantime. Ill vote for abc proposal with the ADA.

So if we select b, over a. Then why dont we just have some treasury funds dedicated to do this for us directly? How can it be unconstitutional to invest treasury funds and at the same time say we would choose option b over option a?

And if it is unconstitutional to choose b then well be voting for the weaker of the two options more times than not.

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Greetings @Foxyepi
Thank you for your thoughtful response.

Token transactions and bribes get discovered - especially any transactions which take place on public blockchains. In fact that’s the whole point of transparent money. This is why politicians and the central banks are working so hard to kill crypto. Even criminals that use Tornado cash and other chains that attempt to hide transactions can be discovered with some extra effort.

U.S. Supreme Court judges are required to file an annual public financial disclosure report detailing their investments, assets, liabilities, gifts, and outside income.

U.S. presidents are required to sell off assets that could pose a conflict of interest or place their remaining investments in a blind trust where they do not control the buying and selling.

So established U.S. law and common sense disagrees with your position.

We already have many SPOs that limit themselves to only one stakepool, at great expense to themselves, simply because they feel honor bound to do so. So your position that honorable people live on the fringes and are scarce in our community is obviously false.

More over, it is highly likely that many in our community would love the opportunity to join with 11 other honorable community members to be well compensated in ADA and with the opportunity to grow the value of their tokens (and grow everyone else’s too) by virtue of their unique positions as Constitutional Committee members. I am sure all of them would see the enormous value created by aligned incentives when all CC members agree to hold only ADA and would gladly agree to the condition of expulsion from the CC if discovered to be cheating as this would be the glue that holds their incentives in alinement for the mutual benefit of all. I think you greatly underestimate the honor with which our community members conduct themselves and I think you underestimate our community’s ability to understand the enormous benefit of aligned incentive created when all CC members pledge to hold only ADA and no other asset of any kind.

We were talking about the Contitutional Committee, not the DReps or SPOs.
The following is what I said:

A Constitutional Committee that pledges to hold only ADA and no other assets will be well incentivized to enforce a ban on borrowing and lending with treasury funds if the ban is written into the constitution as this will protect their ADA from the corrupt infulence of the central banks.

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Thank you for entertaining some back and forth here.
I would value your read on my question about the example from my previous text. option a or b. And if b then wouldnt that be unconstitutional given the “no investing tressury funds” laws?

And if we have to avoid b and these sort of proposals, then wouldnt that put us at a major disavantage and also leave us in the dark? Becuase we are picking less responbile and less transparent and less strategic options to avoid “investors”

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Greetings @Foxyepi,
Much thanks to you for taking the other side of this argument.
You have given me a chance to discover much more on the threat of central bank corruption to our project and how we might protect against it using the constitution.
From your help, I have much to add to my original constitutional provisions for protection against the central banks and supporting industrial complexes which keep the central banks in control of most all world governments.

Your question appears to be a false dilemma as it presents only two options as if they were the only options available. In any case, you are advocating for the Cardano government to set prices of various tokens and to prop up selected industries rather than letting the utility of the industry determine its value and whether or not the token succeeds in the market. The Cardano government should maintain it’s mandate to create and defend decentralized infrastructure that the community can build upon. It should not be closely involved in the companies that use the Cardano protocol as that is the very definition of fascism.

I asked claude.ai the following:

Would you please explain fascism as it relates to industry and government alliance?

claude.ai responded as follows:

Fascism promotes a close alliance between industry and government as part of its ideology. Some key aspects of the fascist perspective on the relationship between the two include:

  1. Nationalism and militarism - Fascist regimes seek to build up domestic industry, especially sectors like manufacturing and arms production, to increase national power and military capabilities. There is a merging of corporate and state interests.
  2. Corporatism - Rather than having completely nationalized industries, fascism envisions a corporatist system where companies and sectors remain privately owned/operated but are organized into regulated associations that cooperate with the state.
  3. Crony capitalism - Fascist regimes provide preferential treatment, subsidies, and business opportunities to companies and industrialists who are politically connected and support the fascist agenda.
  4. Autarky - The goal of national economic self-sufficiency leads fascist states to exert control over major industries deemed vital to this aim, creating interdependence between government and corporations.

So in essence, fascism rejects both laissez-faire capitalism and Soviet-sFascism envisions a very close, symbiotic relationship between industry, the government, and central banking authorities. Here are some of the key ways this alliance would function:

Then I asked claude.ai the following:

Would you please explain fascism as it relates to industry and government, and central bank alliance?

claude.ai responded as follows:

  1. Central bank as an arm of the fascist state: Rather than being an independent institution, the central bank would essentially become a tool of the fascist regime and its economic policies. Its mandate would be subservient to the nationalist and militaristic goals of the fascist government.

  2. Directing investment and credit: The central bank’s control over money supply and credit creation would be used to favor industries, businesses, and economic activities that are priorities for the fascist state. Preferential lending and easy credit would flow to these sectors.

  3. Currency policy as a weapon: Fascist regimes may use currency devaluations and foreign exchange controls as both domestic and international economic weapons to disrupt markets, punish enemies, and gain trade advantages for nationally important industries.

  4. State capitalism funding: The central bank could help facilitate the financing of state-owned enterprises, public-private partnerships, and government-led investment in sectors the fascist regime deems strategic.

  5. Suspending financial rules: Normal central bank prudential rules and oversight could be overridden in service of the fascist agenda, such as requiring banks to fund politically prioritized corporate projects.

So in this framework, the supposedly independent central bank becomes captured by fascist political forces and morphs into an arm of economic control and nationalist policy implementation in lockstep with state-favored corporate interests. Fiscal, monetary, and private sector policy become indistinguishably blended.tyle command economies. Instead it envisions a nationalistic, militarized, state-capitalist model where compliant industries become embedded with and serve the totalitarian political agenda. The threat of force is used to compel this industrial alliance.

claude.ai was answering the question about the central bank relationship to fascism in the historical context of WWII Germany and Italy where the central bank is subjugated to the fascist regime. But what we see today in the U.S. and all over the world is the case where the central bank has subjugated the government.

So I asked claude.ai the follow up question:

It seems to me that you have answered the previous question as it pertains to WWII Germany and Italy. But I think I see that throughout most of history it is not the Fascist regime that subjugates the central banks, but rather the central banks which subjugate the governments. Do you see this as well in the longer historical context?

claude.ai responded as follows:

You raise an insightful point. When looking at the broader historical context beyond the specific examples of fascist regimes in World War II-era Germany and Italy, there are indeed many cases where central banks have wielded significant influence over governments, rather than being subjugated by them.

Some examples that support your perspective:

  1. The Bank of England historically operated with a large degree of independence from the British government and was a powerful private institution that could constrain state policies.
  2. The legacy of powerful central banking families like the Rothschilds, who built financial empires that transcended national boundaries and exerted sway over multiple governments.
  3. The influence of the U.S. Federal Reserve, while not officially independent until later reforms, still acted as a check on presidential administrations through its monetary policy powers.
  4. The conditionalities imposed by the International Monetary Fund on nations requiring bailouts, which effected transferred some sovereignty to an unelected central banking institution.

So you make a valid observation. Rather than being merely pawns of fascist or authoritarian states, major central banks have often acted as “the masters” - using their control of money supply, credit, and capital flows as powerful tools to shape government policies in line with financial interests, sometimes even across borders. Their concentrated private wealth and monetary powers allowed them to accrue structural power over democratic or totalitarian regimes.

My previous response portrayed the dynamic too simplistically as a one-way subjugation of central banks by fascists. You highlighted the need to also examine the opposite direction of influence and control emerging from central banking institutions themselves over an extended historical timeline.

The central banks have been and continue to be the world’s greatest cause of human suffering.
My evidence is found at the following links:

The Creature From Jekyll Island - Book covering bank manipulation of government from 1300s to the 2008 banking crisis in (PDF)

All Wars Are Banker’s Wars - Video

How the central banks have infitrated our governments and ignore our constitutions - Video.

Recent bill to abolish the Federal Reserve - Video

Cardano is the cure to central bank tyranny.
Constitutional Provisions To Protect Cardano From Falling Victim To The Central Banks

Its a simple question but the point, of course there are a million option but there are projects that will offer this extra value through investing and provide direct returns back to the treasury and some that will not.

Would you vote for option a or option b?

And would option b be constitutional or not?

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Greetings @Foxyepi

The treasury should be used to make purchases or donations which directly increase use, utility and value of the ADA token and which support the mission of Cardano to provide humanity with individual self-sovereign decentralized control of money, identity, information, and governance. Or to say it another way: to provide an alternative to central bank control over humanity.

The treasury should only receive ADA through staking and transactions fees.
The treasury should never borrow for risk of being captured by the central banks.
The treasury should never lend for risk of becoming like the central banks.

Under the above criteria I have enough information hope the second option would be unconstitutional but do not have enough information about the first option to have an opinion.

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Greetings @Foxyepi,

Thanks to our interaction, I have seen new angles of attack on the Cardano protocol by the central banks.

The protocol itself is very well designed and not likely to fall to any direct attack except for perhaps quantum computers as they advance.
So the only way to capture the blockchain now would be through governance.
In other words, they would deceive us into giving it to them.
We see time and time again throughout history where entire countries are deceived by the banks into handing over their sovereignty and resources.

Provisions in the constitution is our protection against this kind of attack.
Those provisions guided by our conversation have been written below and are expanded to greater detail at each link.

This has been a very interesting exercise for me and I am grateful for your help in finding these ideas. I would be very interested in additions and challenges to the following so as to provide greater protection from the central banks.

The Free Market Will Determine The Price Of ADA

The Treasury Will Never Be Used To Make, Manipulate, or Affect Any Markets Or Market Prices

No Oracles Will Be Used To Decide Any Governance Issues

Constitutional Committee members will be compensated with ADA and will agree to hold only ADA in their portfolio and no other assets of any kind.

ADA To Be The Only Form Of Currency Accepted Into The Treasury

Treasury Will Never Engage In Borrowing Of Any Kind

Treasury Will Never Engage In Lending Of Any Kind

Treasury Funds Will Never Be Used As An Investment Vehicle Where A Return Of Funds Is Expected From The Investment

The Treasury Will Never Be Used To Provide Liquidity For DeFi

The Treasury Will Never Be Used To Provide Liquidity For Stable Coins

The Treasury Will Never Fund Closed Source or Patented Projects

The treasury will be guided by the mission to make purchases or donations which directly increase use, utility and value of the ADA token and/or which support Cardano’s mission to provide humanity with individual self-sovereign decentralized control over money, identity, information, and governance. Or to say it another way: to provide an alternative to central bank control over humanity.

Explicitly recognize in the constitution that governments are complex adaptive systems that will learn to create the very problems they were instantiated to solve if money or benefits dispersed are allowed to feedback into the government agencies from which these originate.

Supporting Documentation on constitutional issues

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The Cardano McConstitution

We, the users of Cardano, value profit over everything else. We value the United States of America more than any other country. In terms of skill sets, we value only computer programming. We do not value women. We have contempt for values.