It’s not a fixed concept like “the country”, it’s always “changing” ppl are selling out/buying in. Today the community has x members. In 1 year it will have maybe x10 times more. For sure, it will still be “the community” but will not be the same as the one today. It’s a total waste of time to try to figure out a solution to a problem (Governance/Treasury)
I am sure you know from cardano road map that “Voltaire (Scalability & assurance)
Voltaire is focused on assurance and scalability and will see the introduction of a treasury model. This will ensure the sustainability and self sufficiency of the blockchain and community.” is due to be released in 2020. There is enough time for the network to grow, change, for ada to be redistributed among a broader nr of people before the questions of distribution of “power that controls the treasury” is valid.
We can or should consider some other types of votes: not just +1 but also -1
Or - if we assume a 50stake/50human weighting is practicable - both stakeholders and humans have a certain amount of votes. It would be one relative to stake and a fixed (equal) amount per human. Let’s say 5. (or why not 10 or 50)
Now everyone involved in this vote can place his “points” on the table where we wouldn’t see simple questions like “Question X: yes / no ?” but much more a list of proposals, and everyone collects OK and KO votes.
This variety IMO is asking for more granular voting capabilities.
In a simple yes/no poll it would be completely brain-dead if one voter gives 3 OK and 2 KO points.
But it makes sense when a voter can put “all-in” in favour of his very important project or against something he has big concerns. He can also say: 3 points for proposal A, one in favour of B because it sounds good, and one against C because this draft seems not jet ready for implementation.
the incentives must be proportional to the work you do (stake)
to get proportional rewards / we need proportional power attributed to the nr of ada staked cos this also creates an direct incentive to “buy more power”.
BTW, as we’re still discussing the title of this thread: “whale fears”
Not sure what you think about Elon Musk. I’m definitively not a VIP and celebrity worshipper, but his strong belief in his disrupting innovative and sustainable projects, wherein he put his whale-money is already awesome. And now this: Musk get’s only paid if he’s successful and with him all other large and little stakeholders: Tesla's Elon Musk Ties Future Compensation to Valuation Boost | Fortune
This proofs, even if it’s not common, that it’s possible to have good whales.
this could become a new thread (@ADALove ? ;- )
I wonder how all this invested (FIAT) money affects the real world’s economy.
We all know, only circulating money creates wealth, allows production, and so progress and success. I say this because I strongly believe that by far the most things every human needs, from the very primaeval basics up to all these new things we saw coming in the last 100 years, were and are still created by human hands and brains. Not by staking and waiting to become rich. (sorry whales)
So not sure what you watched last December. In the region where I live employees get a 13th and 14th reward. They’re usually used for things like Christmas goods, holiday, house furnishing, … in short circulating money.
In December I was asked quite a lot about what’s going on with these cryptos and how someone could put in some money. I’m sure I only noticed the tip of the iceberg. Then in January, this iceberg melted and flooded. This money is not circulating, which means artisans get fewer orders, hotels fewer bookings, …
HODLing is the epitome of frozen money.
And besides, ADA will be available to staking/mining when Ouroboros is launched.
The iceberg melted and that money went in to the hands of smart money. That smart money could also spend it if they wish but instead are probably doing something smart with it. Productive efficiency is flawed and I mean really flawed. 18 or 20 % of what it could be. A little less money buying a little less crap. Hodling in mid Jan was a mistake but holding almost the rest of the time …that is to say feb through whenever is not. Now if they were buying up ICO 's they are stimulating economic growth in the future token economy and they contributing to potentially very important work at level usually only reserved to accredited investors and vc’s. Think about a project like ambrosus and ask yourself if that money is not contributing to the economic efficiency making possible a safer future for everybody
Agree. In PoW, “work you do” was narrowly defined as processing power. Cardano may see “work you do” being defined more broadly - encompassing any work that is able to be incentivized and valuable to the network. Can include running nodes, holding/ staking coins, to voting, usage, and other novel metrics.
The founder of UBER has a solution to whales, with a crypto currency called ECO. 1 trillion tokens which 50% will be given away.
From whitepaper
" If properly executed, this token allocation strategy will accelerate platform adoption and network effects, and help achieve a gradual reduction of economic inequality across the globe. Instead of rewarding anonymous miners, Eco will give the majority of its value created to billions of users around the world. This can help more than two billion people in developing nations gain improved access to financial services, and achieve a more balanced distribution of resources."
There is no solution to whales, because there is nothing to solve, the only thing to solve is make everyone equal in terms of rights, “whales” are a natural consequence of a free-market economy - because wealth is created out of thin air and few has the skills and interest in doing so.
Regardless of what money we will use, this is how things are going to be, it is the way things has to be. There are no way around this, if you want a wealthy society with rising sustainable living standards.
Just like you have an elite in any sport, It is only a few that have the skills to compete on the highest level or interest in reaching that point, because it takes a dedication of a life-time, and even if you dedicated your life to that goal, there are no guarantees you will succeed, it is all in your hands and the mercy of randomness.
I agree just pointing out that others are trying to “evenly” distribute their currencies
Sure, but you also said a “solution” to the whales… They can distribute all they want, but if that token were to become money, 10-50 years later you would see a natural distribution again.
If you gave a million USD to each citzen of the earth today, over 90% (and probably something like 99% in the third world since they dont have experience) would have lost everything by 30 years and the process of this would be bad for us all… Because all of these resources were squandered on bad things like consumption. What helps us all, is when resources are being “invested” and it only help the economy if the invested resources produce a yield (profit) if the net-basis of all investments made are losses the economy shrinks.
This is why we want the majority of assets are concentrated in the top percentile of the population, they have the skills to to produce yield… This all happens automatically in a free-market, if we let it happen, the money and assets will flow to the people who can develop, manage and grow them. That in turn makes us all wealthier on a net-basis measured in living standard, not money over time. What many also forget is, those in the top percentile change all the time, and those who dont belong there (lets say you got lucky) will be replaced over time.
That is why Capitalism is the only system in the world that has continuously raised living standards, Build the greatest and most wealthiest country in the World in the matter of 200 years. USA. With more growth and development in that period that all of human history combined - even in the last 50 years there has been tons growth, despite socialism being a giant anchor around it, now having the lowest wages vs productivity ever… Of course now the US is headed for a major disaster, probably the biggest the country have ever seen, hopefully we will go back to what worked to begin. Hopefully we will finally learn that Government interference is the major catalyst in these events… Government interference and the reason most think it works is due to it taking away the short term pain, but all it does is trade in all these short-term pains for major pain in the future when everything implodes. Then you can ask, was it worth it?
Fortune comes a crawlin’, calliope woman, spinnin’ that curious sense of your own.
Can you answer? Yes I can. But what would be the answer to the answer man?
Nice post jb455. Let’s look at it from even a more simpler view - to see the “flippening” happening (ppl dumping fiat for crypto) we will need to see big, huge whales getting on crypto. After they will buy in, they will start shillin it to the rest
I agree, it really looks like Crypto, too, is no better or different than the classical world of finance.
Thats exactly the point regarding whales.
One part is the skills that someone brings in when he decides to participate in a certain competition. For example a 100m sprint or a Marathon. The next question is with how much background-support you participate on this competition (Rocky vs Drago, underdog vs favorite, David vs Goliath, single person vs. professional paid team supporting a “single” opponent in this competition, …)
So far I’m with you.
Now we come to the interesting part: Would you want or continue to participate in a competition where you know that the favourites can define their own rules. Something like they must support 1 kg, while the normal participants have a load of 5 kg during the race?
Can you prove or explain how and why this will happen? In jb455 sport example usualy it’s a “the winner takes it all” (happy) end.
Next question: is crypto and it’s kitty-pussy-cat games just an optional thing where we all can decide to participate in the regional league, national championships, Olympic games … , or should this “crypto thing” become a worldwide economic vehicle who distributes, generates and shares the wealth to everyone by replacing the existing system (in clear words: there is no choice if you participate unless you’re afraid of starving and dying.)
To be clear once again:
1.) let’s define if we’re talking about the rich-man’s gambling here, and people freely decide if and when they join the poker table. Clearly state: Yes or No!
2.) can someone please clarify what’s the difference of new crypto-whales, compared to Oligarchs, hedge-fund managers, patriarchs, … you know all that kind of people often mentioned when it comes to justifying crypto.
3.) ok this one probably is the most trickiest of my questions: who believes crypto speculation waves could continue to grow if whales and already banked people who easily can invest some of their wealth, collected in this terrific FIAT system, would clearly know that this new system does not foresee the usual Goliath-advantages but a fair system?
If we start from the assumption that cryptocurrency will go mainstream at some point in time. We must accept that smart money, hedge fuds, banks, corps - whales - call them whatever- big “fiat holders” will start buying in! THey always use the same strategy - dump the market (wait for the market to dump) buy in as much as they need - after, they start “shillin” and you see those assets being pumping.
I consider myself oriented to capitalism. I grow op within and was successful with a lot of my projects. The question where we clearly differ is where this capital has to go, stay or become managed.
The USA - from my overseas point of view - benefited from its freeness (that little small group of redskins liked to make room) combined with the lessons learned from the old continent they left. And yes you clearly have to admit they left it as underdogs, poor people completely overreached and exploited by the whales of that time.
But as you already said this hadn’t prevented this ecosystem to grow and slither into some major problems. (I fear this forums hosting storage has not enough space to describe them now here, just read the news about painkiller drug problems, shooting-kill-hit-lists, and so on…)
I don’t say that this damn detached “government” you mentioned above is able to solve and handle this in a long term. The same as detached whales can’t do this in a way preventing huge implosions. This requires active involvement of all participants, without a bias who of them is good, smart or rich enough to decide others people destinity.
Here is where we disagree with each other. You see many of the problems you describe and many others in this forum is caused by this good hearted intention “to do something” and this is where things go bad… Exploited, exactly there were monarchs and all kinds of things people were fleeing from… But you see what they all had in common? GOVERNMENT… Why did a few people have power in all these countries? Because they controlled the power structure which had the military - BECAUSE there WAS a powerstruture to control and exploit. If there is no power structure that could be exploited this wouldn’t happen.
So what you want is a limited government that has limited powers in what they can do, hence there is no power for politicians to sell and no one can use the power of the government to exploit anyone. So if you become wealthy in a free-market you have done so by voluntary means, by providing value - and not through unfair advantages granted by government power - which is how things are done today.
But you cant blame Corporations for lobbying government, Its not their fault, if they dont, their competitors will. Just as you cant blame people for taking and exploiting welfare even if they dont need it, when its there. People act in their self-interest, we have to expect that and respect that. The only way to solve this problem is take the power away, so there is nothing to sell.
The only thing we need from a government is to protect our rights and enforce contracts made voluntarily by individuals. They act as a third-party to ensure that everyone plays by the same book. They dont need to do anything else, we the people will take care of the rest. We will build schools, we will build charities, we will build health care. The free market will take care of it all, and do a much better job for all of us.
This is what American was originally founded to be like, and it lasted for a long time due to a lot of protection measures and forward thinking done by our founding fathers - but unfortunately they were not strong enough to last… They were not in favor of democracy, that is why the US is a constitutional representative republic and not a democracy (even though that is what it has become over time)
ok, interesting.
This thread is all about the fear of the whale’s power. (look at the initial title)
Where exactly and why do you differentiate between the power of politicians, whales, governments, corporations, … ?
Please don’t get me wrong: I fully understand the arguments about the staked money regarding risk, professional involvement, and also @rin9s mentions regarding the ability that adversaries could easily become 1ADA voters with the sole purpose of hurting Cardano. I don’t say it’s perfect, but I try to bring up some proofing questions that should clarify what board people should join. Who’s the crew. WHo’s the captian or do we set the sails without one? Whats the plan and protection mechanisms in rough seas? What are way-points of the route? Which harbours are being targeted and what clearly not? Which game space is available on the way to change the route, but where no one can leave the ship?
Because this is very important to understand that there is a big difference between the power of a CEO in a Company and the government.
No matter how powerful a CEO in a company is, no matter how much money he has. He cant hurt me in a free market. The only power he has is to sell me product that are a higher value to me than a competitor… That is the only power he has… What if I invest in his company? can his decisions hurt my money if he makes bad decisions? Yes, but I decided to invest in that company. He had no power. He only had the power to sell me the idea.
The point is, in a free market where everyone can compete and decisions are made voluntary, they do not hold the same incentive or power that a government has, because an actor in the market cant change or enforce the rules, but a government can. That is why these two power structures are very different, I already wrote about this…
Look at my example where I wrote about if I owned 75% of all ADA… I wrote exactly why Whales in ADA have no meaning. Its number 13th comment.