Are pools going to be allowed to take a fee or will staking be truly expected value neutral?

I see what you are referencing, thanks!
“Although particular values for parameters a and b were calculated, these values will probably be adjusted in future to better reflect actual costs.”

That said, I have a real concern that if competitors like BitCoin Cash are running speedily with .01c fees, they may not be able to adjust the way they had hoped.

nChain, BitCoin Cash is not viable for the world today short of moving value between themselves. Their smart contract platform is not designed to enable old silos to join in a better future, their way or the highway.

Chainomatic, the substance of your reply just echos my comment seemingly but you responded as if its wrong.

Thanks for the detailed reply,
Do you know how one gets selected to be one of the initial pool operators?

Hi t_mes,
To my knowledge it has not been specified yet how to be on the list of initial pool operators, nor what will be required, etc. The details as I know them are that they will select “20-100” in early February.
There was a reference that they would open a specific forum for pool operators here on the forums and I would surmise that that would include a section to sign up for consideration.
Hopefully we’ll all get a lot more info/details in the next two weeks!

Not at all, I made it a little more plain is all by citing the probability theory of large numbers so others can better follow the discussion.

Yes, by pooling you do reduce the slot divergence.

Fees, almost a given.
You’re a little nervous, understandable given how the marketers are marketing already, probably only going to get worse.

I could address this from a couple of vantage points, I’ll pick the balanced view this time.
If I’m a small pool operator, say less than 100,000 ADA, and I want to balance out the large ADA holders who hold million(s) of ADA, I need to market to others who see the merit in keeping the big boys in check. This structure is very sound as long as collusion remains absent, still, I get it can appear like a carrot on a stick idiom.

Ah, purpose and conviction, nice.

As we do not know the ADA playground rules yet I would concentrate on what you can do to become a pool operator now by picking the “fastest” most resilient, secure independently running green carriers, computers and data centers you can.

I’m looking forward to seeing your offering.


Cardano will be opening up a development section for node operators in the first quarter of 2018.

thanks chainomatic. I really appreciate your reply.

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Compare a hight ROI, 0% fee pool that only offers uptime vs. a 25% fee pool that is using those rewards to fund community development projects. Some considered ADA holders are going to want more than just ROI and will use their ADA for partially funding community development. Obviously you’ll need to believe in the projects being undertaken by the pool, but growing a community of tools and projects is core to growing adoption.

In fact a good pool community represents one part of 3 prong approach. IOHK / Emurgo / Cardano have funds to deploy for internally led development. Second the Dash-like treasury seems like it will be deployed for community projects. Third, pool operators will have the ability to deploy earned rewards in a way they see beneficial to the community, and to acquiring more delegates. So your support for the network could take the form of getting a job at IOHK, proposing a community project funded by the treasury or funding your project from your own investment / pool generated funds.


Love you approach Mr. lovelacepool :smiley: / Its VITAL that ada holders stake with pools that will use those rewards to fund community projects :wink: Our first attempt is this -

Wow, a few million ADA.

I bought late Dec and I can see I got into this way too late. Should have checked these forums. Probably will sell out once it goes to $1.

Agree with the OP, there are a bunch of ppl trying to make money on the staking. Not saying they are bad people, we all have bills to pay, but asking for 1% is a joke. Leading edge hardware is not required for Proof of Stake. All you need is basic level Amazon EC2 machines, replicated for redundancy, and you are done. Cost, about $40 p.m. Fuck it, I might run one for free just for the LOLs.

I’ve had a couple of drinks, but lets see if it’s worth it for Mr 3 Million ADA to stake with a pool. I hope I get the maths right. No warranty is implied or given, bla bla bla.

If they use the circulating amount of ADA, rather than the total supply (which makes sense because you don’t want voids), then that is 25,927,070,538.

Dude is hodling 3,000,000 (suddenly that don’t seem so big)

So the chance of being chosen in a lottery is: 0.0001157092

What does that mean?

If a day is 24h is 86400 seconds.

And if a slot is 120 seconds (which is what is in the docs, but I hear different things)

Then number of “events” per 24 hours period is 720. Right?

The number of wins for each 24 hours period is 0.083

And I think the number of wins per 30 day month is 2.5, so this guy probably won’t need to join a pool. He will run his own pool.

But if we change the amount of hodl to say 500,000 ADA, probably, on average, you won’t win in a given month. So yea, then you need a staking pool.

But if dude is already running a pool, and he said he is going to run it for free to others - then Why TF would anyone join a pool where you have to pay?

Now that I am thinking about this - here is the obvious question - what frequency of payment, is the minimum an average person would want?

I myself, would like to see 5 payments a day (more would be nice, but I do not think I would really care that much); on the other hand, fewer than 3 a day, I would probably move to a larger pool.

So how much ADA does a pool need for 5 payments a day?


Given the circulating supply, how many pools does that allow?

At least according to my drunk maths. If wrong, pls correct. Let me know your thoughts.


I think a significant portion of the supply will end up not being staked which makes the math even more favorable.


Actually in the last interview of Charles, he was saying that the block time is 20s if I remember correctly.

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I think you need another drink :wink:

slot is 20 seconds. 4,320 slots/day.
21,599 slots/epoch.

i believe staking is per epoch in current design (though i think that may change with liquid democracy?)

docs and word on the street indicate 25-100 pools to start with in Shelley.

circulating supply of 25B and 100% stake:
25 pools = 1B/pool with normal distribution
100 pools = 250M/pool
halve that for 50% staking assumption.

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Thinking that the 25B of coins will be stacked seem to me hard to believe. Lot of it will remain in the exchange because some people won’t want to have it in deadalus for some reason (they have a poor connection and were never able to sync to the blockchain and hence transfer their ada (that would be sad…), they can’t start the wallet, they don’t know how to use the wallet, etc).

Why would you need 5 payments a day? Or do you just mean rewards won for the whole pool 5 times a day? I would think one payout a day is plenty if you’re participating in a pool.

If you only want to pay 1% of your reward in transaction fees, then you’d need a payout of around 20 ADA based on a 0.2 transaction fee.

If the stake reward is 9% annually, you’d need around 81,111 ADA to get this level of payout daily on average. I assume this is beyond the average wallet value. That’s also assuming a pretty high stake reward.

If the stake reward is 1% annually, you’d need 730,000 to keep the transaction fee to 1% daily.

To further your analysis… Given the robust price of ADA, I’m guessing more pools than less initially. Also thinking the reward might be closer to 5% than 9%. Given numbers of a prior dPoS community, putting the early staking numbers at 40%. Also I’d hope to see pool funding = community development. dPoS is not just server management - it should be software and tool development. Hence a 5% fee taken by pools for this purpose, also inline with other dPoS projects.

The actual block right now is 20s, you can see it. But the doc says 120s. It could be anything.

The slot right now is 20s, the doc says 120s doesn’t it? They can change it. You don’t know they will maintain 20s.

Rewards are per slot. If you are the slot leader (clue is in the name) you get the reward.

Epochs are used for deciding who will be slot leader; it is decided this epoch, who will be slot leader next epoch - but that is beside the point of rewards and irrelevant.

Doc don’t say anything about how many staking pools, because anyone can do it. I am going to run one for free, just for the lulz.

I think eventually anyone will be able to run one, but it will be limited at the start.

I don’t know exactly how a pool in ADA will work. With REDD coin, every time the pool wins, it gets distributed. So I personally get a distribution 3 times a day-ish. It doesn’t get distributed in the sense that I get it in my wallet, but I see it in my pool account. When I want to withdraw to my wallet I can. Perhaps I am basing my understanding too much on how REDD does it. But I have been unable to find any docs on ADA.

I like the fact that I get paid multiple times a day. It makes me feel good. Maybe I’m just a freak. You are probably right, once a day is enough. If the winnings are transferred each time at the cost of 0.2ADA then, yea, once a day is enough.