Sad to go.... Deregistered Stakepool

We had a small pool (48k), but only got 3 blocks the past year, so I’m shutting it down. I really wish there were incentives to keep the smaller pools going, but there just aren’t any. We can’t compete with the big pools. Anyway, it’s been fun and I’ll be delegating to another pool instead.

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i think its hard to open pool if you dont have the audience.

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Tuning the parameters as is discussed in various threads, here, will hopefully help a bit and make pools below 10 million interesting for delegators.

…, but for the really small pools, it will probably never be profitable. Block production has to scale with stake. Otherwise, it won’t be proof of stake, anymore. And if the stake is too low to consistently produce blocks, it won’t work out.

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Hi yes its hard. We are a year old now and have managed to grow slowly. There is no incentive to attract delegators. Even fees dont seem to make a difference as big pools have 3 4 even 5 % fees. We choose 0.5% and some choose 0 but still cant attract delegators. I feel there should be something to help small pools who are decentralised. What i mean is we operate out of south africa. It would be nice to know that on the furtherest point of africa we would get some advantage albeit very small. Anyway we need to educate people that staking on an exchange isnt ideal and counter intuitive to decentralisation. But that cant be stopped and people are generally lazy with their investments and would rather have others control it. Keep at it man i say! We have ups and downs. We run plebpool.com [PLBPL] btw :wink:

@utorth I know. It’s a huge problem for the decentralization that companies like Binance spin up many many pools mostly for their own profit but also for the people holding ADA on Binance.

We (my son and I) also struggle with getting new people into our pool with ticker CHUB https://cardanohub.net/

My son made a video about running the pool last year THE FIRST 90 DAYS of STAKE POOL OPERATING on CARDANO MAINNET! - YouTube

I’m also retiring my pool next epoch. Gave it almost a year but my marketing wasn’t attracting enough delegators. If you still want to get involved with proof-of-stake operations, consider Ethereum or Tezos. With both of those, you stand a better chance of generating rewards, although the upfront commitment might be a bit steep.

I also run a ~45k pool, wtf i would be super happy with 3 Blocks ^^ i just got one in 12 month and even this i missed because of misconfiguration ^^

Good luck @utorth and @cardsfan7189

Same I have been Operating ALICE Stakepool for 12 mons and have not minted a single block… I was hoping they would reduce the saturation point value but appears they have not yet.

Funny how all the reqs for any sort of delegation assistance program is you need to have minted a block and above 100k staked. I feel like that kills all the small SPOs who never even get a chance to mint a block.

Honestly in it for the lols at this point

It is really hard to get enough delegators as a small SPO.

I guess I mentioned this already, CF and IOG could do the following in order to help more small SPOs which in return would be a great incentive to those additional SPOs to invest more time into building tools, promote the project etc:

  • Coordinate delegations between CF and IOG
  • Reduce the 15mil CF delegation to ~3mil. That would still allow existing SPOs who received delegation to mint blocks but CF would be able to help many more SPOs. In case this is not possible due to technical reasons as it would require splitting up current wallets, then I hope it will be something CF will consider once the multi-delegation feature will be implemented.

My assumption is this would not impact current SPOs who received the delegations as they still would have enough ADA delegated to mint blocks. It would just incentivize more people to get more involved.

Thank you so much for running a pool and contributing to Cardano!! Attracting delegation is really tough! Even if you do all the right things and put in all the hard work, there is no guarantee. I’m glad you’ve enjoyed the experience along the way. I applaud you on making the hard decision to shut down operations. I hope you will reconsider if the proper incentives arise. Small pools are essential, and you will be missed.

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I try to go with smaller and independent SPOs, but as delegators it is hard to put your stake someplace where your APY will be 0.00% for many epochs, let alone months. I stuck out a few for months but one cannot subsidize failure and penalize oneself forever.

Perhaps there should be some association and accreditation created to unite all the single and independent SPOs. Initially it would require consolidation (e.g., 10x sub 50k ADA SPOs become 3x 400-500k ADA pools) so you can start generating some yield. Folks may accept 2.5-3.9% APY instead of 4.0%+ if its for a good cause like decentralization, with signs of progress.

Dedicate X% of your rewards to promotion of the association. Share duties maintaining the SPOs. Every 1,000,000 new ADA across the association, spin off a member into a reborn SPO with 500K of that ADA.

Incentivize switching to your SPO/ any association SPO by taking advantage of NFTs. They can be issued to early delegators to reward later on with a small cut of future SPO rewards. Or issue coins and tokenize ownership of your SPO somehow, giving tokenholders a claim on some portion of dividend-esque rewards at some point in the future.

Many people want to support decentralization and independent SPOs, but crypto is big and scary. And very complicated for your average bear.

Little folks need to fight size with passion, creativity and building community.

I fear it is a misunderstanding that for decentralisation it is necessary that pools of arbitrary small size have to be viable.

It will be really good if the parameters are modified such that pools way lower than 10 million stake become profitable (and there is no extra boost for private pools with 68 million pledge, anymore).
But it will always be necessary to acquire a relevant amount of stake.

And it’s not necessarily a bad thing. Having hundreds of semi-professionally run pools in the range of 1 million stake is still decentralisation. We don’t need pools run from peoples’ basement for that. Sorry.

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Take a look at the CIP authored by @Michael.Liesenfelt

See: CIP - Shelley’s Basho-Voltaire decentralization update

Doc: CIP - Shelley's Basho-Voltaire decentralization update - Google Docs

Also this youtube interview by Rick McCracken:

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Hi,
We feel with you because we started our pool eoy 21 and we are in a similar situation. Our worst case scenario ist, that we get 7 blocks per year - this would mean that we can afford our costs for servers, homepage etc.

But regardless of webpage, Twitter acount among others it seems nearly impossible to get a delegator, even with our charity purposes, I think that you are kind of invisible for most delegators beyond 2M ADA or so.

We will try to get an approval from the program of cardano foundation, this is the only realistic possibiltiy to get over this threshold.

We support in general the requirements for changing the network parameters, mainly to slow down big players like binance or coinbase. Therefore we think, that a too low fixed fee could be also a knockout factor for small pools, because big players don’t need the fees at all and a small pool will not be able to earn their costs if they get only 10 blocks per year or less.

Many small pool operators view the min-fee as setting a floor on what they will get paid. However, you need to think about it differently. You won’t get paid this fee if you produce no blocks. You also won’t get any astute delegators staking with your pool until your pool has over 10M stake. This is because astute delegators recognise that a min-fee of 340 represents too high a proportion of rewards for a small pool with less than 10M stake.

By reducing the min-fee to 30 we can remove this 10M stake hurdle before a small pool becomes competitive.

The pool operator then gets to decide about profitability / viability over time by attempting to build while managing its percentage fees.

Currently the 340 min-fee is the equivalent of a barrier to entry in the traditional finance world.

Min-fee 340Ada

should be translated to:

A pool can’t be competitive until it can control 10M in stake

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