The Cardano Foundation’s Delegation Methodology is Changing

Amazing news!!!
thank you for your existence and the great job you do.

there is great development and i am really happy for the changes, which are made.

for the Unchanged Delegation Criteria i totally agree :slight_smile:

  1. pledge must have some range and somehow to protect the ecosystem from really low pledge but also huge pools
  2. single pool operators are the power of this Network
  3. costs and fees must be logic
  4. % of Saturation is a great way how to control and call a pool “small” (but i have a question, see below)
  5. pool with small Active Staked produces at least 1 block after 6-12 EPOCH, which means i find it correct this point.
    if a small is really small, maybe it needs more time to grow a bit … develop good communication and marketing(small advice)
  6. is great to give all of us the chance to have this support by delegating to all our pools :slight_smile:

question :
when will be done the investigation for the new delegation?
after so long, 6 months running my pool, we grow to 3M and i find 4,9% Saturation :slight_smile:
We have never received any support, and it will be great if we are part of this lottery

Thank you for what you do.
SPOperator for TTS17 pool

Think before you print ! ! !

350k Ada each?

I would delegate the this to smaller pools. Seems meaningless to delegate this to mid-large pools. e.g,

20% to avg 5 epochs < 1 block pools with some minimum criteria
80% to avg 5 epoch < 3 block pools with some other minimum criteria

For 350k Ada feels like it’s not helping decentralization if you delegate it to BPs making a ton of blocks (saturated or otherwise)

Keep in mind I’m just guessing on the right % and number of blocks. Just trying to point out the low delegation amount

The Cardano Foundation should be an example of what rational delegation is; reward optimization is the only rational delegation strategy. CF’s delegation is irrational and is over leveraging pools.

The minimum pledge is WAAAY too low and there should be no upper bound. Giving 15+ million stake to somebody with only 25k ADA is ridiculous. 25K pledged pools should not be receiving delegation from the Cardano Foundation or the community for that matter. Anybody running a 25k or under pledged pool should be delegating, not running a pool. Pools are meant to be profitable. Pools that are not profitable will be forced to cut back on pool infrastructure, weakening the network as a whole. Stake delegated to pools that make no blocks is essentially wasted. The CF’s delegation acts as a carrot on a stick for people to make under funded, low quality pools.

Delegation should follow pledge from both the community and CF. There is no way to know that a single entity or whale is not producing hundreds of low pledged pools opting for CF delegation.

Assuming pools are making all their assigned blocks, pledge is everything. Nothing else matters but pledge. This is a proof of stake system, not proof of pool, not proof of desire, not proof of ‘mission’.


Why can’t the algorithm choose minimum stake rather than pledge value ? In one years time If ADA cost $10, does it mean someone needs to come up with min $250k plus to create a stake pool and hope it’s sufficient to generate a block? If stakes don’t matter in generating blocks, why stake then, just create a pool with 100k pledge should be good, which means onboard delegators as pool owners .

Does this mean once we delegate we are in that pool for 3 months? Will it also take 3 months for the payouts to arrive if we switch to a different pool? Why punish people who are in a pool that becomes saturated for 3 months when they could have left the pool in 15 days?

If I increase my stake, how long will it take to change?

When does this change hit?

You’re mixing up pledge with stake here. A pool with zero pledge nut enough saturation can mint blocks ans be profitable. For the record, I’m not saying that pools with zero pledge should be eligible for the CF delegation.

What do you mean by ‘we are in that pool’? Are you talking from a delegator’s perspective here? Stake delegated in epoch X will count in epoch X+2 and rewards will be payed out in epoch X+4.

A pool can’t become saturated because of the CF delegation. Only pools with 5% saturation or less are eligible. If the stake delegated by the CF keeps around 15M, with the current value of k and ADA in circulation, that adds a small 25% saturation, so the saturation of the pools that receive CF delegation will be between between 25% and 30%.

I think a minimum stake will be a good extra requirement too. Now, the requirement of having minted blocks in the past somewhat implies that, but it can be that you had pure luck and minted a block with low stake. I don’t now if the exact requirement is one minted block or a higher minimum, it the latter case, the chances of minted multiple blocks with low stake are lower, so the minimum stake isn’t so necessary anymore. But it should be an extra requirement IMO (having minted blocks and minimum pledge should stay).

I have my own thought regarding min pledge. At this moment I think I must take CF side.
The reason why they give min pledge over 25k, is that they are willing to see how serious you are in Cardano project. I think people that running Cardano pool should be in this community for at least 2-3 years so, they know what happen with the Cardano (the roller coaster of $ADA price and the waiting :smile: )
This is proof that we will be here for good or for bad situation. (I hope so). And If any person who are long enough in $ADA. I think you will think that 25k $ADA is small (if you buy in 2c, it’s like $500).
If, anybody can make pool, then can get the same chance to get CF delegation. After the delegation over, he/she quit. It will be a waste to our community.

This is just my personal opinion. Feel free to disagree. FYI, I’m a small pool too.

@safetaco You’re very confused. This post is only about stake that the Cardano Foundation applies to stake pools - they are leaving their $15M with the pools for three months. It has nothing to do with changes to how normal delegation works - epochs are still 5 days and you can come and go as you wish.

Hi guys!

We have upgraded our pledge to 30K ADA to meet the conditions for the delegation program.

Are we able now to be elegible in this delegation program?

Thank you for your support!

I was confused with staking vs delegation. I thought I was part of the delegation crowd, but I am a mere staker. Thank you

if you made 300k in delegation consider it a success.

this seems unlogical.

if a person just threw a few thousand buck into cardano 2 years ago, hes now able to make a pool that meets this pledge, running it on a toaster in his garage. the relative value of ADA should matter, its all reflected back in Fiat currency, and even in GDP of the region the pool is in.

just making one factor (pledge) so strong in terms of delegation selection is oversimplifying by a significant margin.

skin in the game can easily be accumulated through: online presence, content created, server setup (and costs wich are associated with it ) etc, the pledge (apart from its place in the formula) is fairly insignificant in terms of proving skin in the game. its sadly the best we have in terms of absolute values. and that is a far cry from ideal.

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My point is at least you’ve been there for some time. I’m not saying that we using toaster in garage. I think we should consider node setup seriously. This will effect the whole network.

The very first stakepool operators were able to buy huge amounts of ADA at a fraction of todays price for their pledge, high enough to win blocks regularly alone with their pledge. 25K ADA today is not affordable for most people, it is nearly a year salary for most people out there.

When you start a stakepool today, you would have to invest over 1 Million Dollars into your pledge to have a consistent chance to win the block lottery. This is ridiculous.
The first pools have such a huge competitive advantage that small pools simply cannot catch up. Big pools currently attract new delegators with huge ADA giveaways for new delegators, small pools do not have the bugdet for things like that.

We need to make small pools WAY more attractive.
It cannot be that only millionaires can afford running a profitable stake pool.
At the moment, starting as a stakepool operator is pretty much useless.

With our small pledge and stake we simply cannot win a block.
We invested 2K in the pledge and 8K in our stake.
At the price of around 90 cent at that time, my partner and I invested around 5K USD each just for setting up the pool and start the business. I think that is a lot of money and should be enough to be able to mint blocks.
After a few epochs, we realized very quickly that our chances to win the block lottery are pretty much zero.
We still did not win a single block within 3 months, and we got no rewards.
No Rewards, no delegators. No delegators no Rewards. It is like the Ouroboros snake.
But the server bills keep coming in…

“Holding 25K ADA” and “having produced blocks” is JUST NOT POSSIBLE for new stakepools.
You are putting money into pools that are already profitable - that does not make sense.

We will wait for some more months but at the moment we are already evaluating shutting down the pool. That cannot be what you want for small pools.

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Since there is no way to verify the setup, we should wait for… like 12 months until we can finally verify our setup?
How about a “send me a test block without rewards to verify my pool is set up correctly” button/function?

Happy to hear that Cardano Foundation is actively working in improving the delegation process and help smaller pools.

This is totally right. I think I mention in one of my post few months ago. Even I have 50k in my pledge. It is very hard to get block. I must be very lucky to get my next block.

But, I highly appeciate whatever the IOHK and CF do to try to save the small pool. We have about 2,500 pools right now, I don’t think it’s possible to save them all. And if they manage to save them all, probably the pool can be double within months and so on, because people will come to setup a new pool and asking for delegation from CF and IOHK.

So, my conclusion would be, there will be some pool die and close down (like any other business) it can be you, it can be me, and can be whoever they are.

I don’t know what is the target of CF or IOHK regarding the quantity of the pool that is Cardano network need to keep decentralize, I’m sure that there will be some number.

And if you have only few $ADA please consider to delegate to small pool, it will save your money and time rather then starting stake pool. Unless you have a friend that is an $ADA whale and commit to delegate to you.

Hi there, I’m part of Beez Pool, we have just started.

I believe that would be interesting if you could consider creating a minimum delegation for new pools that don’t have the possibility of either having a pledge of ₳25,000 or producing a block, obviously with minimum selection criteria (something like potential, reliability and participation in the community).

Help them mint their first block, help to stand up!

We’re not here to be rich, and there are so many small pools like ours full of goodwill that does not have the ability to mint blocks or even sustain server costs for long, risking losing hope and money.

In my opinion, in the long run this only helps centralization, and people who may have started late but who are competent and believe in the project are penalized.

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