@nsticco Fully agree, this point is not to be taken lightly. The method by which pools are selected will have huge impact on the culture of the Cardano ecosystem and will shape the power large investors hold. The selection criteria will determine early on who can be voted for/ staked with. This criteria could be as simple as a pool’s ability to install a docker image and run a node. Or it could be a more considered choice such as inviting pools/projects that have shown a commitment to develop for the ecosystem.
Either way, the discussion in this thread about large investors and their impact on the network, will only see some clarity once pool criteria is released.
it was also mentioned by Charles in several AMAs and whiteboards I believe. I believe the technical docs you refer to show a “supposed” parameter configuration for SL.
this isn’t entirely true. very large players regularly short their own positions, sometimes as a hedge, sometimes to drive out smaller players and purchase up their holdings on the cheap. it is exactly as @ADALove has suggested, and I’ve seen it happen even in small privately held companies between family members! it’s a bluff and deep pockets tactic.
@Adafans_io Anyone that meets certain criteria can be a pool. Dash and Zcoin’s criteria is holding 1000 coins. Ark’s criteria is be in the top 51 delegates. We already know initially one of the criteria is to be selected into the first 25-100. Anyone can stake, not anyone can be a pool.
Guys, I’m thinking we should setup a process through which community members can send their suggestions /questions to Cardano foundation. That way we will get encouragement that our collective ideas get visibility.
Please search on twitter for the latest interviews with Charles, you will see that he says it simple - anyone can be a pool, but you should listen to it, not just trust my words
Some of you need to understand what consensus means… No one is forcing you to opt-in! If you don’t like the rules/setup of things - sell out and leave! This is not a country with geographical dominance that can make ppl act somehow - dont like the concensus rules? - leave
this is correct and has been confirmed many times. in fact it was personally confirmed to me by Dr. Peter Gaži in Boston. (watch his lecture here if you like!
though Charles also said, in a prefatory Q&A, that he hoped one day it would be easy to run a node “on a laptop”. Initially, they anticipate 25-100 staking pools, which is significantly more decentralized than the 6-12 mining farms controlling btc according to Dr. Gaži
I think its true for “test period” - so when Shelley goes Live - ppl already can have tons of options to stake - and IF they want they should be able make their own pool! This is how i think it should go so Anyone can have the same chance to start a pool! Those who are in tests should not be privileged - anyone should be able to setup and run a pool and stake there! at any time!
Why not have 5000 pools - what whould be the problem?
Unreliability.
In one of his interviews I believe Charles said in order to not have the face of this project tarnished by an aura of unprofessionalism and unreliability – which would be a shame considering its technical maturity in the back end – a number of solid, reliable pools would be selected initially from the ones that step forward. Meaning they want serious, 100% uptime installations acting as pools because these would actually be there signing the blocks when they are assigned the leadership role. You and me on our laptops/desktops could sometimes be on vacation, we might have our electricity cut off etc.
Hope this helps just a little bit, not at all trying to be in conflict with anyone, purely providing some info wherever I can.
I’ve enjoyed reading all the responses this post has created.
P.S. I have actually tweeted this thread @Charles_IOHK but so far have not gotten a response. Went on Twitter and created an account all that, maybe someone else will be luckier?
first of all thank you for this very interesting thread. I think he needs a very thorough explanation. (even if this means that some of my questions will wait even longer for answers)
But beside the whales you mentioned something that’s been bothering me too:
ok, but what does this mean in a real world? In most cases you don’t simple leave but you’re going to join an opponents party (community, pool, group, …)
If people don’t see any requirement to find a consensus and just leave, this is a mechanism that - over time - creates very concentrated and strong pools, seeing all others as a “direct opponent”, no wait “enemy” if not “existential threat”. (BTW: That is what my former questions have been about)
Even if we can see very good scientists building up things here, let us not forget that it was also scientists and engineers that build A-bombs. Even the most known nerve gases like Sarin and VX was discovered by scientists while they tried to create something completely different.
To be clear I don’t expect that Orobouros will go to eat up someone else than himself or that Mrs.Lovelace will poison certain users transactions. But mechanisms that favour creation of “opinion pools” are the perfect seeds for ideologies, and that one (history is full of proofs) don’t hesitate to use physical weapons, mark people with stars on their arms, build up concentration camps, build up large walls, use intercontinental rockets, …
I know: this is pretty OT now and it sounds very peculiar. Whales are 1th-world problems. The very important thing is avoid 3WW. He’s been waiting around the corner for a while, looking for some detonators.
I think ppl overestimate the importance of voting… what do you think we will vote for? We will vote for - software patches basically - do you see in the foreseeable future any company (other then IOHK) that might have any updates “ready for voting” ? This voting mechanism is somehow described here - https://cardanodocs.com/cardano/update-mechanism/ So its more about updating the protocol fast, by voting… so the pools can vote and implement an update as fast as a few hours if needed.
OK. Potential risk - 51% of the stake is controlled by a group of whales - they could block the updates / the rest could just fork
I hear Charles complaining about the (lack of / negative) coverage Cardano gets. With all the competition in this space, why would anyone expect positive coverage in the US press, media and social networks for a Japanese owned network. Just keeping it realz 4u.
Went on Twitter and created an account all that, maybe someone else will be luckier?
