Catastrophic Collapse: How to Visualize It?

Are We Underestimating or Overestimating Risks? Those who have either not lived through a major financial/political crisis and/or who have not studied the history of Political Economy usually significantly underestimate the risks associated with unstable financial/political systems. In fact, I’ve seen some people in our community dismiss the threats that we face today with comments like “yes, but that’s not going to happen for a long time. . . .” So, let’s briefly examine what it really means when we say “a threat is coming.”

Catastrophic Collapses Occur at Exponential Time Scales. We know from Chaos Theory and Systems Theory that catastrophic collapses in nature, financial markets, nuclear chain reactions, and all technological systems occur at exponential time frames. The Latin American debt crisis, the Russian debt Crisis, the Asian Contagion, the 2008 financial crisis, the hyper-inflationary events in Wiemar Germany, Argentina, Hungary, Zimbabwe . . . all occurred within short- and medium-run time frames (a few months to a couple years).

Visualizing Exponential Collapses. A catastrophic snow avalanche can occur virtually instantly even when a mountain looks peaceful and safe. Why? Because the system of interdependent snowflakes on the mountain are configured in an arrangement that is structurally unstable. Anything that is unstable will break; it’s only a matter of when the system reaches a state of criticality, which triggers an instant phase change in the system. That phase change looks like a hockey stick on a graph, with the line depicting the rate of collapse/breakage/financial losses/etc. (whatever you’re measuring on the Y-axis) as a function of time on the X-axis.

Normalcy Bias is a Real Threat. There are formal ways to quantify risk that are beyond the scope of this post, but for now, my point is that we should not fall victim to normalcy bias. It’s not possible to predict the exact date, but we can be certain that every unstable, complex system will collapse because the laws of physics combined with the flaws in human nature guarantee it. So, saying it’s “too soon” doesn’t really have any quantifiable meaning.

Awareness of the True Risks & Opportunities Increases Our Persuasive Power. Being more precise in our awareness of the true risks and opportunities that we face in our economic and political systems today will give us more credibility and more persuasive power when we communicate why it’s so important for humanity to emigrate to Cardano Land.


The term ‘Catastrophic collapse’ calls up emotional images that may not help in framing this discussion. From my experience working in humanitarian emergencies, a complete catastrophic collapse of an entire society is very unusual. Catastrophic collapse does occur but it usually is local and fluid/ limited in time.

Some reading that may add; do read with a healthy perspective. The overall message is one that seems to hold water though:

Are national- to global-level grey swan catastrophic collapses on short to medium time scales impossible?
Nope, more then enough options out there, some examples:

  • Nuclear war (EMP attack)
  • Mayor epidemic
  • Complete collapse of key ecosystems we depend upon
  • Energy prices exploding
  • Large-scale and sudden uncontrolled migration (caused by demographic trends, conflict, social/ cultural/ environment/ political/ financial issues, climate change, catastrophic event)
  • Major disaster (cataclysmic tsunami, volcano outbreak, earthquake, flooding, …)

And there are certainly a couple of potential black swan events out there that we’re not aware of (yet).

None of these risks are negligible in probability of occurring, some are actually baked in the cake and inevitable… All would be very disruptive. Yet our response systems and coping mechanisms are woefully inadequate to deal with any of these.

Sounds distant? The electricity goes down in your province/ state for a month, what would your environment look like? Do you think you’re able to get through one month in full winter, full summer? How about your neighbours?

ADALove, could you frame where you want to get to with this discussion/ dialogue? Do you want to sketch some scenarios? Do you want to explore how Cardano/ the blockchain could mitigate some of the effects of mayor events, and how, or is it about how to make a system based on Cardano more resilient to shocks?

Well my friend, I think this is a subjective statement. :slight_smile: So, let’s explore this concept a bit because it’s actually pretty fascinating and it’s directly relevant to our individual and collective perception of all human and systemic events.

Definition of “Catastrophic Collapse.” The value of analytical frameworks can be evaluated in numerous ways, but in this case, an analytical framework is helpful to the extent that it focuses our attention on risks and opportunities that are not already widely understood and/or not already widely accounted for in current decision-making processes. Additionally, we should define what we mean by “catastrophic collapse” to ensure that the risks we see actually match the solutions we present. In this case, I define “catastrophic collapse” as follows: The severe degradation, malfunction, or breakage of any social, economic, technological, or natural system.

Magnitude, Duration & Impact of Collapse. “Catastrophic collapse” should also be defined by its magnitude and duration, which enables us to measure the comparative impact of two or more catastrophic events. For example, we can compare the Great Depression, the “Forgotten Depression” of 1921 (shorter duration but higher magnitude deflation than the Great Depression), and 2008 crisis with other socioeconomic crises. The same thing can be said for geopolitical crises like the deterioration of civil, political, and cultural institutions, e.g., in WWII-Era Poland, Greece, Japan, London during the Battle of Britain, Jewish Communities in Germany (and throughout Europe), the Rwandan Genocide, Syria, Yemen, and many other war zones. (I know you have a lot of knowledge and experience in this area, which I respect and appreciate.)

Continuum & Phases of Collapse. A “collapse” is a process, not an event. What humans perceive as a catastrophic collapse is merely a perceptual trick that the human brain performs post-hoc to make a series of time-bounded events appear to be a singular event. In reality, every collapse progresses like the frames of a movie, one discrete and interdependent event after another. Individual events are usually imperceptible and/or unrecognizable in isolation, but they seem obvious in retrospect. This is an important concept because it helps us more accurately recognize when we are living through the different phases of a collapse.

Sudden vs. Gradual Collapse. Excluding natural disasters, e.g., volcanoes, tidal waves, plagues, and asteroid impacts that can destroy entire civilizations virtually instantly, human civilizations collapse over centuries. Human cultures collapse over generations. Human communities collapse over decades. Economies collapse over business cycles (~5-10 years, but can have multi-generational causal factors). Technological systems can collapse over any time frame, but systems with flawed designs tend to collapse relatively quickly. This is also true for political and economic systems.

Emotional Response to Collapse. Every human’s emotional response to a given event is dependent upon their individual perception of personal loss and their share of the collective suffering that may exist during a collapse. Of course, this is inherently subjective, but individual perception is reality; and collective perception fuels large-scale socioeconomic patterns of behavior, e.g., revolutions, civil disobedience, and geopolitical interaction between nations. It is certainly possible to discuss the process of any kind of collapse without being emotional, while simultaneously recognizing that all human events are fundamentally driven by human emotion.

Focusing on a Snapshot vs. a Movie Reel. With all those basic definitions and factors in mind, I don’t think anything you said in your post contradicts anything I said in my post. We both have a pretty detailed and nuanced understanding of the nature and diversity of collapse scenarios. Where we seem to differ is in our focus: My focus tends to be on the progressive deterioration of socioeconomic structures and political institutions, which we know from history inevitably culminates into truly catastrophic socioeconomic collapses. IMHO, it seems like you’re primarily focusing on the current frame of the movie and discounting the broader process of most collapses; while I’m focusing on the spinning movie reel as the collapse is unfolding over time.

For all those reasons, I don’t think my original post has anything to do with “emotional images.” :slight_smile: I was simply presenting a summary of an analytical framework that I think is useful as a starting point for deeper explorations of specific catastrophic socioeconomic and/or geopolitical collapses that might be interesting to our community over time.

Is that a fair distinction or have I misunderstood your point?

The Purpose of this Thread: Save Humanity from Self-Destruction, of Course! :grinning: In addition to my points above, the purpose of this thread is to create a forum for people to explore the many interesting consequences, implications, risks, opportunities, and solutions to all kinds of socioeconomic and institutional collapses that can hurt humanity. This is my primary interest in Cardano: To build the system and our community into a truly viable alternative to the many corrupt and obsolete political institutions and socioeconomic systems that are destroying capitalism and democracy on Earth today.

Do you want to sketch some scenarios? Do you want to explore how Cardano/ the blockchain could mitigate some of the effects of mayor events, and how, or is it about how to make a system based on Cardano more resilient to shocks?

Stimulate Thoughtful Exploration of Relevant Ideas. I can imagine many catastrophic scenarios beyond the ones I’ve already alluded to previously, but my role in this thread is primarily to provide a framework and conceptual platform to stimulate discussion, with the hope that others will contribute to the discussion over time. And of course, everything we do and say in these forums should always have a meaningful connection to Cardano. This is how we will evolve as a community, increase our awareness of Cardano’s strengths and weaknesses, and encourage the team to implement solutions to problems that we, as a community, believe Cardano can deliver to humanity.

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Of course it is. We want this to be a dialogue/ discussion that people enter in an open and curious state. World views are precious little things that people tend to protect fiercely. ‘Catastrophic collapse’ potentially makes eyes roll and risks switching people off and off-hand reject any point made. How many people will have a positive and open mindset on a piece that praises ‘communism’ or ‘fascism’ in the first line? We are irrational, emotional and pattern-seekers… We want people to pay attention, so they have to be guided gently to an idea, then, they make up their own mind; evolution, not revolution :slightly_smiling_face:.

Agreed if we add ‘cultural, political’. The book ‘The five stages of collapse’ from Orlov comes to mind where Dmitry described the different gradual stages through which societies collapse starting with financial, then commercial, political, social and finally cultural.

Absolutely, yes, important point.

I’m fine with all you say. My message was more trying to frame the discussion in a way that might draw others into it. Your points align with the way I see things.

Ah, I see, well, if that’s all then it’s quite straightforward. Now let me see, where did I put my magic wand, I always seem to mislay it somewhere … :wink:
I’d like to frame this in a different way: the ultimate goal should be to reach for a state where humanity and the natural environment are able to coexist in a sustainable and beneficial way and where society embraces values that align to basic human rights. Your purpose fully encompasses what I say, I just add some elements that give some additional perspective. Because if we don’t get this right, it won’t be going anywhere anyway…

I see a lot of eyes rolling up to the ceiling now asking themselves ‘what have these two been smoking’, what has this got to do with Cardano?

Well, actually, a lot. The Cardano network is a tool, a potential solution that could address issues linked to current vulnerabilities of society. We are still trying to find out what this tool could do, but this should be guided by an understanding of what the problems are. And when looking at problems, we need to understand what their underlying causes are. Painting a wall isn’t very useful unless you understand that the discolouration is causes by humidity from a leaking roof and that the roof has been repaired and the structure allowed to dry before painting.

So where do we start when we look at risks in society? When we switch on the TV (OK, I don’t have one) and we look at the news, we’re looking at the symptoms of underlying causes and dynamics/ processes that are often not directly clear.

Let’s look into some of the underlying causes of vulnerability that might be up the alley of the ‘Cardano solution’. This will not be complete and there would be a huge amount to unpack (this could get a bit tedious) but to give a flavour:

  • Governance: almost everywhere there are issues with regard to accountability, transparency, equitability, inclusiveness and effectiveness/ efficiency of government. Vested interests have a solid foot in the door and are able to steer decisions

  • Skin-in-the-game: linked to the point above. We have created systems where those taking decisions are shielded from the effects of these decisions. Read ‘Antifragile’ from Nassim Nicholas Taleb, the funniest (I know, very subjective) book on resilience I have found so far (though it is also very insightful).

  • Technological and organisational lock-in: decisions about technologies and ways to organise things that seemed ‘best’ at the time, but that lock us into closed paths that are very difficult and costly to leave. Dependency on fossil fuels and individual cars in developed countries come to mind, take a map of a modern city with suburbs and commercial centres? That’s lock-in right there…

  • Focus on ‘efficiency’, while ignoring social and environmental impact. It seems obvious what direction it will take if companies only have accountability to shareholders and nobody is personally held accountable for harm done.

  • Increasing complexity and interdependency: large and important systems have become more and more complicated and complex (see for some background on the terms) with increasing dependency. Throwing in AI and IoT in this mix seems to be a great idea :thinking:

  • The limitations of democracy: (for as far as any country is really democratic today), in practice our ‘democracies’ ignore some very important stakeholders: future generations, environment, other nations, excluded groups (while I live in a democratic country, as a foreigner I cannot vote at national level here). A democracy will only work well if all who vote have a good understanding of issues and are rational and responsable… Democratic systems are not the most adequate system to deal with crisis situations (would a ‘democratic’ army work?)

  • Our complete dependency on energy, while we have to assume that availability of usable and useful energy will become more and more limited, see the post It can all go to zero for some background on this

  • Our complete dependency on ecosystem services that are increasingly under pressure, and approaching dangerous tipping points:

  • Distorted markets: much less my cup of tea, but I think many will agree.

  • Increasing distrust in society with regard to politicians, private sector, ‘other groups’

  • The deep-deep underlying causes are linked to political/ cultural/ economic dogmas, human nature and geography, but we won’t go there for now (and these are probably less relevant with regard to Cardano)

An incomplete list, shooting from the hip so surely missing a couple that could be relevant to Cardano (I have on purpose not touched upon ‘development’ and expectations, depletion and need for increasingly costly and dangerous approaches to extract minerals, over-reliance and misplaced trust on ‘technological’ solutions, climate change, demographic trends - population growth, migration, urbanisation, aging populations in developing countries, and several other key issues…). But hopefully a list that will help in taking this dialogue further forward.

Now, the question is: how can we use the Cardano platform to work on some of these issues?

A couple taxonomical points: Those are sub-classes of “social” (short for “sociological” in this case) because all human activity is sociological. And I used “economic” in the strict sense (the study of the flow of value), not in the looser “socioeconomic” sense to avoid redundancy with “social.”

IMHO, what Cardano can realistically do is clear: Automatically and objectively execute and enforce all transactions, contracts, and agreements, which are the foundations and pillars of all political and economic systems.

Then, with that immutable transactional layer as the foundation of every society, nearly all forms of institutional corruption, power concentration, and wealth confiscation/expropriation/concentration can be substantially eliminated. This is because a society built upon a system of automatically enforced smart contracts can impose a constant and unavoidable source of ground truth, accountability, and equity (not “equality”!) in all human interactions.

“More law, less justice.” – Cicero. You put a lot of thoughtful items in your list–that’s great. Of course, every list of potential risks to humanity will be incomplete just like every legal code could never define every action that humans can or can’t perform. In fact, one of the benefits of a constant and unavoidable source of accountability via smart contracts is that fewer laws are necessary to achieve more justice. That means Cardano can reduce the complexity and volume of laws, which are currently the food upon which armies of lobbyists, lawyers, and politicians feed, sucking the life and wealth from our global economy.

The Source of All Human Problems Is Poor Accountability. In addition to the points above, every single risk you mentioned in your list (and all others not in the list) can be resolved, mitigated, and/or more effectively managed when humans live in political and economic systems that are governed by a constant and unavoidable source of accountability via smart contracts. In fact, everything that is wrong in human societies today can be traced to a lack of accountability. Thus, we don’t need to create a long list of risks/problems because we know that the fundamental cause of all institutional corruption, negligence, and malfeasance (which causes wars, unsustainable resource depletion, unnecessary famines, poverty, economic crises, health crises, etc.) is caused by the lack of accountability that plagues our economic and political systems today.

As long as it’s clear to everyone it’s OK. I prefer to spell it out so it becomes more explicit. Things tend to be overlooked if not put to the front.

Absolutely agree, rules and regulations are killing society and keeping us from addressing the real issues in society. I pride myself on that administrators started to sweat profusely and nervously look for the exit as soon as I entered into their office to yet get another explanation for some occult and ridiculous rule they had come with that needed to be questioned using common sense :smiling_imp:

A blockchain is value-neutral, it might itself may be perfectly set up, yet there are entry points, criteria that need to be defined in such a way that they make sense, are clear and work, nodes that need to operate and that are dependent on external inputs, decisions that need to be enforced outside of it. Rubbish in-rubbish out. It is not automatic that the blockchain will solve all of these issues. And the blockchain does bring some potential issues of its own. Who decides on the parameters, the criteria, the consequences? The blockchain potentially opens a Pandora’s box with regard to ethical issues…

Yes, take this to your favourite administrator :slightly_smiling_face:, and see how much traction you get …

However, tell him/ her that this approach will reduce time attributed to administrative processes by 15%, turn-around time for getting a decision by 90%, operating costs by 25%, while reducing mistakes by 8%, and having to deal with pesky technicians questioning systems by 82%, for the small investment of XXX. That’s when you’ll get traction, and that’s what we need desperately now (but it is a lot of work to review processes and come up with reliable figures). Time is against this movement. This needs to become personal… What will this do for you personally? What could this do against you and your family (don’t forget the potential negative sides of the blockchain if used wrongly)? Make it visceral…

I agree (mostly) on the statement yet don’t think the blockchain is the silver bullet. There are no easy solutions to complex problems and our society with all its dependencies is highly complex. The blockchain is one of the potential solutions and we need to understand very clearly what it can, and can not do to yield this tool well. Ultimately it’s only a tool though (albeit potentially a very powerful one).

I’m afraid we’ll have to translate all issues that we’ll try to address through the blockchain into parameters with criteria that need to be put together in a coherent and transparent way. Systems will also have to be made to measure elements that need to enter into the blockchain system and that follow up on ‘decisions’ of the blockchain. A blockchain cannot measure lead contents in a river, the level of harm done by an abusive partner, the loss of a key predator in an ecosystem, the change of taste of drinking water. Send in agents to clobber the abusive husband a bit and take him in… Will companies agree to automatically fire the CEO if there has been a mayor issue in the company (what issues are covered and what are the cut-off values again?).
Every technology has had its unintended consequences. We are very good at solving specific problems in linear ways, but very poor at understanding the holistic impacts of the ‘solutions’; our brains don’t deal well with complexity. As much as I’d love to have a silver bullet for the issues, it’s not going to happen. The blockchain will ultimately be one cog in the machine that addresses the issues. And there will need to be parallel systems of decision that function better in certain cases (the example of domestic abuse comes to mind).

Thank you for your detailed comments. I understand and appreciate all your comments.

I kept my comments as succinct as possible for this medium, but please don’t misinterpret my brevity on the risk list as being oblivious or naive to all the usual pitfalls of human nature. I understand that implementing any system requires sensitivity to political dynamics, human egos and ignorance, turf wars, bureaucratic red-tape, and all the messy aspects of dealing with unpredictable, emotional human behavior in the real world.

And yes, I agree that trying to account for unintended consequences is important. I think about unintended consequences a lot, but that’s part of every risk analysis.

This is probably not a very fun topic for most people; so, maybe the others are too scared to think about “catastrophic collapse.” LOL Nevertheless, this thread will be here quietly waiting for them when they’re ready to confront all the demons of the world.

Luckily I’m not under contract for the moment, otherwise I wouldn’t have the time :wink:

Indeed, this thread doesn’t seem to draw much interest or involvement :thinking:. A pity…

Some additional thoughts: I have no experience other then doing some programming in ‘Basic’ somewhere in the ‘80s, but I assume that smart contracts will be built around sets of ‘if-then’ routines. Imagine the following case: two guys sitting in a bar, one hits the other. How much code would be needed to actually identify what has happened? Even more so to be follow what happens next. If we are opposed to having to put everything in writing, just wait until we start to have to fill in the system for the blockchain, the amount of lines ‘under the hood’ will quickly become mindblowing…
We are very good at assessing and interpreting certain types of events. We are hardwired in a certain way and have a lifetime of experience to build on. For a normal ‘fit’ person it would probably take 0.5 seconds to hear the slap, turn head and observe, go through the process of analysing if this is a (manly) joke (yes, we are stupid like that), or if this is serious, identify the nearest exit to bail out, or find the nearest bottle to join the fun. No code needed :grinning:.

Imagine how complicated it becomes when we have to deal with the implications of an extrajudicial killing of an suspected militant, by a suspected power (who doesn’t deny or confirm the hit) on a foreign territory that has not given permission for an attack. The attack resulted in the flattening of a wedding party and a part of a water supply system the community depends upon. How to put that into code, anyone? And then have anything enforced around that.

My point is, the blockchain will be best for some things, yet may work less well in others

Gosh, you guys apperently know very well what you are talking about! – But what are you talking about?

Are you trying to save the world by answering some of the most
important questions in society, namely the question how to predict
and avoid catastrophic collapses in societies? Maybe build Cardano
in a way to help us survive the next inevitable financial collapse?

You are very ambitious, aren’t you!

This technology will not save the world, as no technology ever
did. However it will will change the world for sure. Most likely
to the good and to the bad at the same time, as is always the case
with technological disruptions. I just heard a wonderfull essay
today how Gutenberg initiated printing in the 15’th century. That
was for sure a great achievement. Have there been less wars, less
injustice, less catastrophic collapses because education and
knowledge have become much better accessable with books? No!

Trying to follow your discussion, I am getting the impression that
the whole subject tends to grow out of range. It is clear, that a
Cardano blockchain will be just the beginning. Smart contracts
might not be the answer, they might on the contrary be the
beginning of an even broader discussion. They might raise
many,many more questions exceeding the technological scope. The
area of the discussion seems to be endless. From all the items
in your lists, there lead new paths to infinity.

What is the simple point behind all this? Where is the core?

My opinion: The essence of all this: There is no essence! You are
overvalueing human brain power, if you think you can design the
Cardano system such that it will address all the problems you
mention. You cannot! It is not even tried, as it would mean first
listing all the ambitious goals, then find the (technological)
solutions to it and then implement.

There is no complete plan behind this. There is no concept (worked
out by the most brilliant guys of a team) that just needs to be
followed. There is just something that is evolving. It is
evolution, and evolution is following its own plans, I am sure,
not the plans of individuals or even teams.

As I already mentioned elsewhere in this forum: I was utterly
impressed by the success of the alpha go project that might
indicate the very beginnings of real artifical intelligence. This
stems from human brains of course, but it is obviously going
beyond human brains pretty quickly. The same would apply to the
Cardano project, if it where to proceed successfully. It would
blow our minds, but in an unexpected way. You cannot predict! You
cannot plan!

OK, but in the end I do not dare to contradict you two people,
ADALove and Afridev, as soon as you are going into details.
I might be less experienced than you are, less exposed to the real
developments (technological and social) that you might be
involved with.

Let me just finish with this: The catastrophic collapse, I see it
coming as you do, and as so many people do. You have described so
precisely, how it might be analyzed. We are not sure when it will
happen. We are sure it WILL happen. We are not sure HOW it will
happen. But we are sure it will be a damn big huge catastrophy!! So

It will happen, and we can neither predict, nor avoid. I just hope
myself that I will live long enough to see this
blockchain/p2p/crypto-stuff evolve into something new and
exciting. The road to this will be bloody, and there will be many
who will not make it …

Great to see an entry :slightly_smiling_face:

I agree to much of what you say. I think we have to try to have vision, yet keep things grounded in reality (whatever that might be).

Concretely, what I want to get out of this discussion is the identification of some real-world problems that the blockchain will potentially provide a specific solution to. Examples that practitioners and organisers buy into. I want to stand in front of a group of decision-makers in a development/ emergency response organisation and be able to tell them that this new funky approach is developing that will allow them to access new ways of funding by targeting very specific problem areas (e.g. water supply, support for the elderly/ children, integration of environmental approaches), an option not given before. Not only will this tap into new sources of funding, it will allow them to improve their direct communication with people who would be looking for this. Those 1000 ADA you sent us? Following your preference, we used 600 of these to pay for part of this (photo taken by community member) specific handpump that will allow these families (photo taken by community) to grow vegetables, and the girls will now not need to fetch water anymore during the day and thus are now able to go to school. We used 300 ADA to train these women in repair and maintenance of the pump, and provided the tools and spare parts needed to operate this pump for 5 years. Additional funding will be used to set up a supply system - using local markets - of relevant spare parts to ensure longer-term sustainability. Me talking to the decision-makers again; not only will this open up new ways of accessing funds and communicating with supporters, it will make your organisation more transparent, more accountable, more efficient, and you’ll be able to actually get on with the technical aspects of your work and not have to jump through hoops for your institutional donors. Do I have your attention here? There are plenty of other ways that this approach will make your work easier, more effective and get to people you couldn’t before, think of…

That’s what I want; examples of real concrete solutions to real problems/ improvements (and I happen to work around resilience, so underlying causes of vulnerability is directly relevant to my work) that I can use to gain traction to ensure there will be adoption.

If we can get representatives of several types of work who have a strong basis and real examples of how the blockchain/ Cardano will improve things in their domains, and who will be strong advocates for this, then I think we can get traction.

For this, I need to understand the blockchain and its practical application better though. We need to get the practitioners on board, we need to get this out of the exclusivity of the scientists cup-board… I do respect the scientific approach, but ultimately we need to address real-life problems, not ‘scientific’ ones

Simplicity! I agree, it will be very very difficult to describe the benefits of such an unfinished and potentially disruptive technology. If you are not getting it simple, it will not be understood. Also because the future results turn out to be different than planned: See Bitcoins: It was planned as a currency: send/receive money. But this did not work. It just went a different way, and today bitcoins are at best an asset, a storage of some value, but only maybe.

I also tried to break it down to a simple example here:

To put a more lighthearted (and about as far from cryptoes as you can get) twist while staying in the barfighting sphere. A funny description ‘If WW2 was a barfight’, you may know it already. One can’t always be serious :wink:

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