The only proven solution to the problems Bitcoin solves = Burning Energy

What is it going to take for this sort of thinking to end:

Mr. Van Valkenburgh said that for now, throwing lots of computing power into the mix — and the electricity that it burns — was the only proven solution to the problems Bitcoin solves.
At the moment, if you want robust security, you need proof of work,” he said.

Peter Van Valkenburgh is Research Director at
"Based in Washington, D.C., Coin Center is the leading non-profit research and advocacy center focused on the public policy issues facing cryptocurrency and decentralized computing technologies like Bitcoin and Ethereum.

Our mission is to build a better understanding of these technologies and to promote a regulatory climate that preserves the freedom to innovate using permissionless blockchain technologies."

There Is Nothing Virtual About Bitcoin’s Energy Appetite, The New York Times 2018-01-21

One of Bitmain’s Bitcoin mines in Ordos, Inner Mongolia, China

If coin center really is a playing voice for “public policy issues facing cryptocurrency and decentralized computing technologies” we are doomed.


It reminds one of “cards against humanity” and their giant hole digging !

Few things can end it (my take):

  1. Peter (or others like him) becomes educated in fundamental computer science/discrete math, reading through Ouroboros, understanding the proofs, their assumptions and why they work, etc. Most folk, including smart lawyers, do not have the time or motivation to do this, so the second best is to follow and appeal to authority and resort to groupthink. Not that there’s anything wrong with that - we all do it, or otherwise we couldn’t function normally.

  2. The proof is in the pudding - what CF/IOHK/we are attempting to do here - raise awareness that (formally verified/correct) PoS, not PoW is the way of the world. You don’t need to be a math or a CS wizard to intuitively grasp that the way currency and financial transactions currently work world-wide is conceptually closer to PoS than it is to PoW. PoW and PoS both solve the same problem, except that PoW does it by digging for gold, whereas PoS does it by trust/agreement, bluntly speaking. Once the PoW gold fever is over, just as in real life they all end after most real gold is dug out of mines, they will be still stuck looking for gold, meaning, it will still take an equal amount of work to just maintain the network as it did while it was actively mined, except the gold returns will be diminishing/non-existent, and they will have to get paid for effort some other way… meaning, tx fees. Except median tx fees are insane - something like $20 as of now.

    Oh but wait, we “invented” BCH, it’s got a bigger block size, back to $.01 fees, yay! That’s basically the Streetlight Effect… A hack, not a transformative solution, a paradigm shift that truly solves the problem, which is what Cardano/ADA/Ouroboros is. PoW may be here to stay, no one will deny it, as many legacies tend to stick forever, but the limits of its kinetic energy are fast being approached.

    Cardano has infinitely more potential energy at this stage of the game than Bitcoin or its PoW ilk ever did or ever will. They’re two completely different paradigms/approaches of fixing the same issues that arise w/cryptocurrency. If I/we am/are right, then at some point soon, in the next few years, Cardano’s kinetic energy will be 100x that of any PoW’s currency’s peak point.

    Thus, the proof is in the pudding. Once Cardano explodes all over planet Earth, perhaps even long before that, that sort of thinking will naturally end.

  3. Last but not least, Charles et all could be all wrong. It could be that most of these guys who came up w/Ouroboros are suffering from mass delusion, or they’ve made glaring omissions that will show up in the pudding. While there’s a possibility of this too, I think it very unlikely. Yes, all of us could just be greedy, deluded little twits, waiting for the next big thing… and we will all be proven wrong after huge amounts of money and time has been wasted. Never underestimate one’s own kool-aid drinking abilities, is what I say… Pride & self-confidence are powerful, au naturel opiates. This too, will indeed end the kind of thinking you mention by invalidating Cardano’s hypothesis and/or its implementation. Soon after, all this will be forgotten and we’ll move on to ‘the next best thing’ ™.


Great post Martin. Upvoted

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The delusion point is valid but you left off Cardano’s blockchain governs itself, which makes us all a little less crazy by believing in the insanity of freedom.

PS nice thoughtful response; I’m glad to be one of the insane freedom inmates that compose Cardano.


Yep, I exaggerated that point on purpose as maybe one, or say even two people could be delusional about a certain topic. However, you can’t have 50, 100 or more people suffering from the same delusion. Then it’s not delusion,and it’s probably and likely very real.


Have you stepped outside lately?

Critical thinking is not tolerated today, in fact, the system that strengthens the status quo is the same system that punishes the masses.

Work harder they tell you, instilling that it is you at fault and not them, and we do en masse.

Delusions my friend have no bounds and are as old as time, Allegory of the Cave.


Then I ask you, how do you know what is real, true and good?

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I wish we could discuss such things over a pint so what we speak would be realized in the measure, still, I will not leave it be as I should in this context because you asked.

We are engaged in a very sophisticated actual, called living. In this actual, we can divide any thought we have and play with them, how nice it is to play the facets game and create duality, for a time anyway.

When we engage in this sophisticated actual, playing our facet game we are playing on the outside of words. We separate from them producing a thought of separation, real, true and good, are but some examples of the duality we bring out into this sophisticated actual.

We do this because in this game everything is a combination of attributes, making one thing an outside impossibility.

The attributes of everything we do and say is then purely automatic an effect as long as we separate, play the game by the set rules in which everything is matter, becoming accustomed to authority.

We’re living junkies, sharing an addiction, trying to eliminate what is and what should be, transversing all of this through difference ambiances which get recorded in our thoughts.

Are we still walking together?

You ask me a question and I answer, observe don’t analyze delusions.


To know what is the “actual” real true and good in this world , you are asking for the outcomes of a “virtue” analysis or a “justice/justness” analysis. Personally , I am grateful for Plato doing a lot of the heavy lifting early on , and I think there is indeed no ‘wrong’ time to be comparing cardano to the republic (not for a precise match, but for thought-inspiration and analysis).

What chainomatic has elaborated on is , first, one must center oneself in materialism /monism (philosophy) , ((which is a set that can include a theism)) , and then must understand the nuances of one’s own biases, that is - the perceived observer/observed duality. If you “receive results” upon self reflection, that lead you to plato/monism , then you are on the right track to perform REAL analysis … if you come to the dualistic viewpoint that is the hallmark of say, D. Chalmers, you have a fault in your process in attributing yourself “special attribute”.

It is no easy task for those who are seeking to find the actual justice analysis . It is also limited in “output effect” because the system is rigged against us… at least , it is at the moment.


Self-reflection… sounds a bit loaded and self-referential… How does one ‘self’ reflect? Don’t you need the proverbial ‘mirror’ to see your own reflection, a reference point of sorts? And doesn’t this reference point eventually lead to some ultimate assumptions about where anything, particularly, meaning/values, come from? Sorry to gloss on here… Just trying to get in your head, and it’s not that easy to see another’s perspective.

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What can I separate from you and have the actual you still be?


Nothing, I suppose. Not sure it answers the question about what is true/valid/good? Are you implying I get to say what is true/valid/good and that there is no objective standard outside of me by which to measure all of our actions?

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Only in the degree to which it affects your senses.
Mankind today has made nothing appreciable but matter.

Everything in this outside game is positive.
If you are seated you are not not standing up.


Hm, so I see “Chainomatic” on my screen - it certainly has affected my senses one way. Has anyone else here been affected in some other way so that they’re not seeing the word “Chainomatic” on their screen? :slight_smile:

We’ve transformed matter. ‘Creating’ to me means making things ex-nihilo, literally out of nothing. Who can/does that today?

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I put “self reflection” in there as a bait tool. Upon gazing at the “self” in ones mind, one would encounter a seeming mirror like concept.

It is a long and arduous process to describe… but there is a term from Sanskrit called rigpa… And to quote the wiki : Knowing (rigpa) is the knowing of the original wakefulness that is personal experience.

In that way , the self is but a crystal ball , reflective of all perceptual and cognitive phenomena.

There are plenty of objective standards to use; they are the study of the fields of normative ethics. Personally , I find most utility in virtue ethics , but for many, utilitarianism or deontology provide good toolkits so to speak.

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The problem to me with reflecting just on my experience without having some kind of an external standard by which I can go by, is that I often end up being right… kind of like a broken clock twice a day. And then I extrapolate that to mean that I’m always right. Reality then sets in and I find out my projections don’t always hold. Therefore my prior experience as a basis for my rationale means very little or nothing at all sometimes. Not to say that I don’t enjoy being right when I am… I do :smile:


Exactly. But, you have just realized the truth that you are the standard setter for your “self”. You may align your view so that the clock is always right , or never … but it is more practical to see through a lens as close to reality as practical

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It is impossible to describe sound to a man born deaf; or color to one born blind.


Ok, but to all present involved, is it reasonable to say that only the word “Chainomatic” appears on the screen? Unless of course someone here is blind?