What are your skeptism/concerns on Cardano?

Hi all,

Like most of you I am a beliver in Cardano. I think the project looks promising. But to be honest I am a bit concerned about the mania everyone seem to have.During my research, everywhere I looked there were unquestioned positivity about Cardano. Although, I am optimistic, I have almost not read one skeptic/negative word about Cardano. What are your thoughts/skeptism and concerns about the project? For example, I am having some troubles with the wallet which are for me concerning. My point here is not to spread fear or negativity about Cardano, all I want to hear are your skeptism/thoughts and concerns about the project which I only think is healthy.

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Wallet is getting literally completely reworked in version 1.4 (expected around end of Q3 - beginning of Q4). Very many problems are getting solved in that version. Unfortunately, there is this problem of the suboptimal initial wallet implementation that caused some architectural complications and is causing now the complete rework. Charles admits the problem in this twitter thread and never was saying that the Daedalus as it is today is perfect :frowning_face:

But Cardano is literally in its infancy now and what really matters is in what shape IOHK will want to “deliver” the project in 2020, and not in what shape it is right now (basically still a centralised beta). That’s why every user today should understand that they are using a project that is in the process of being created. So (in my opinion, of course), criticising the state of the Cardano tech today, is like looking on the construction site and saying - well this thing is barely livable :slight_smile:

1. Roadmap is practically unachievable for the 2020.

When I became familiar with the Cardano project and IOHK practices - I almost immediately started to incorporate reality into all time-estimates and deadlines they are giving. Never got any butthurt about their timelines ever since.

IOHK will miss deadlines and delay certain deliveries, that’s just the thing to live with. And people usually don’t understand what’s causing these delays and that makes them angry. IOHK are doing everything they can to get MAX prep and research in the given time-limits, given the resources they have. That’s just the goal they have set for themselves and they are sticking with.

And this is exactly the cause of the wallet rewriting we are seeing today, because the wallet-spec was far from done, when they were creating the first Daedalus version. And now it causes the delay for the light-wallets and Ledgers. And this is exactly the cause the Shelley is getting delayed. The principle is simple - they are sticking with the paper until it is done. They always have an option to deliver it in whatever state it currently is - and they are not taking this option. And I like that.

But! This principle causes them to try and balance the complex state between getting the right results and keeping the impatient people happy. And most probably they will overpromise time-estimates and then delay results, just because this is how it’s done when you are trying to manoeuvre the market along with creating a quality product, instead of just pushing some shite out of the gates. And this will cause constant drama and butthurt in many people who do not understand the timeline of the project. And this means that we are forced to deal with this almost constantly for the rest of the development process :frowning_face:

And most probably it will cause that some big part of the roadmap will not be done in 2020. Which is ok for me, cuz even 75% of Cardano is better than everything else, if done correctly. Which is exactly what they are trying to do.


P.S. Of course, I might be wrong on this one. IOHK is learning many things as they go, and the company gets bigger really fast. So maybe they will show incredible results and finish EVERYTHING, but I really doubt it. And I’m ok with it.

2. IOHK job security

I am concerned that the whole overpromising thing is actually a “job security” tactics from IOHK. Which is, of course, ok in the free market. But basically they are promoting the voting center and the fact that in 2020 all the users will have a chance to vote for them or any other willing company to take the project for the further development.

I have real doubts that there’s any real chance that any other company would be voted to continue the development. Even if there would be objectively good applicants. Just because of the massive fanboyism over Charles and IOHK in general. Don’t get me wrong - they are doing a really great job. But I would be happier knowing that they do not “own” Cardano after 2020 (for now - they do, and that’s ok).

I’m not sure the project would not be better off having some other company as the “core team” and having IOHK just as a major 3rd party contributor. But that’s just a concern of mine which may change in the next two years. No objective base there, just thinking.

3. Democracy may fail

Cardano is basically an implementation of the “Liquid democracy” system, with stakeholders collectively having control over the treasury fund of tons of money. Democracy is hardly known as a great birthplace of a collective wisdom. For a long time now I had a greatest concern that the whole voting thing will just burn in flames immediately after launch, with people refusing to think and voting for the complete and utter stupid counterproductive shite. And it might happen. Or it might not happen, and instead might find some sort of an equilibrium. I am really not an expert on these questions, and that’s probably why I have concerns :slight_smile: But this is really an experiment that might be either successful, or unsuccessful.

Happy part is that treasury implementation is planned for 2020, and there are multiple research papers on this topic are still planned to be released before that, so maybe all my doubts will be erased when we get there. But maybe not, idk.

The good part is that we are discussing this whole thing, which prepares the community to when we will have to actually act it out:


For the fair comparison I would like to list things which I am NOT concerned about in Cardano in no way:

  1. Quality of the protocol. Ouroboros is the backbone of the system, and along with the Praos and Genesis - it is the most rational, in my opinion, blockchain protocol there is.

  2. Incentives. The second most important thing in the system after the cryptographic protocol itself. And I am ready to give IOHK all time in the world for them to get it right. And seeing the work they are putting in - I have zero doubts that Cardano incentives will be first in the history of PoS that literally require zero trust. And this is exactly the amount of trust I would like to put in the system.

  3. Goguen and Basho. I have zero concern about the fact that in 2020 Goguen will be delivered completely, and Basho will be delivered at least for the major part. And those are the important stages. And this means that Cardano at this point already will be greater than anything on the horizon.

  4. IOHK commitment. I might not want IOHK to be the eternal overlord of the Cardano ecosystem, but I have zero doubts that they have absolutely the realest and truest commitment to the project. Which means that whether they are getting voted out or not in 2020 or in 2025 - they are with Cardano for the long-long time. And I have zero concern that they will deliver most of the things they are dreaming for the Cardano to have, even if they deliver it a bit late and even if they deliver it as a 3rd party contributors.

So these are things that I have looked thru and thought about extensively, and this is exactly why I have zero concern about them. And the ratio of those concerns and non-concerns are kinda still keeping me here :slight_smile:


Sorry for the long post!

TL;DR - all good, but be patient and prepare to battle stupid-voting.

Capybara tax

(for those who actually read thru all this nonsense :slight_smile: )

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A great and well-balanced post. Thank you for sharing!

Thank you for your post! Probably the best respond I have gotten so far :slight_smile:

My main concern is the length of the road map and that Cardano may fall behind other projects.

If there are more delays in the next 1/2 years and other projects are able to get a head start I feel that it could effect them greatly in terms of recognition, partnerships and investment. Especially as this could be a key time if money starts pouring into the space.

I dont doubt that the technology side of things is of a very high standard, and cardano looks to be head and shoulders over competition when fully launched. However this could be overlooked by investors who may find other options with faster output more attractive.

Once Cardano is fully decentralised, I do not believe this could happens, however totally agree they would get voted enough to continue maintaining the system!
Other companies I think would apply after 2024 supposing would be elections each 4 years

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Truthfully this is my biggest concern…

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I meant “own” in more of an Ethereum\Bitcoin way :slight_smile: Just continue to be a kind of an overlord. One of the worst things that could happen, imo, is if IOHK would win contract after contract every 4-5 years and continue to have completely closed development process, like now. Tho, I do perfectly understand why they have development like this right now (and I agree with them), and I rationally aware that it is super improbable for them to continue work like this after the treasury. But as you said - just my irrational concern also :slight_smile:

Yeah, I am almost 100% certain it i impossible for IOHK to get voted out in 2020. But pretty realistic for 2024-2025.

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Thanks for sharing your opinions. Yeah, the voting system can be fatal for the future of Cardano in the long run. I agree with the concern that it is important that Cardano is ready when the wall-street money is pouring in. If not it could be that the huge amounts of money and backing from large companies on others cryptos will be too fatal for Cardanos future. I hope this is not the case of course, but is going to be important to be first in line when the money is pouring in. If Cardano gets huge support with wall-street money AND have the competitive advantage in the technology it is going to be huge.

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Totally agreed!

Really ??? People are always excited in Crypto but I consider the Cardano community rather subdued. Contrast that with EOS, Verge and several other coins. Those are examples of mania, fanfare and people throwing money at yet to be functioning products. Cardano quietly appeared on the scenes and does not spend much on advertising. There was no overly hyped ICO.

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I actually agree that the hype is higher in other coins. What I reacted about Cardano (while doing my research on many other coins and blockchains) is that it sounded too good to be true at first ( I am pretty new to crypto world). Everywhere I looked at articles, youtube videos, comments, there was this notion of a blackchain who had it all figured out. Nothing wrong, and perfect, no bugs. Comments everwhere was " Going to the moon" “10000dollar in a month for a coin”. As i have been digging deeper, I see that both community and Cardano have their concerns. And I think it is good to actually hear about it and show it. It creates trust. But unlike other coins with hype, Cardano seem to be able to back it up with something while other coins are just words. I am surprised that Cardano seem to be going under the radar for most people.

Like everyone else I hope this goes to the moon as well, but I also appreciate some modesty. If anything, I think it creates trust, credibility and clearity in all this crypto mania :slight_smile:

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@vantuz-subhuman and @ishleh I get concerned when developers think that users are too stupid to vote for what functions they would like to see the software perform. I think it is important for me to express my point here since crypto currencies are way too software developer oriented and have still failed to realize wide spread adoption among the peasants. Crypto currencies will never see wide spread adoption without user input.

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I acutally agree with both sides here. Maybe thats what will happen in voting system/democracy? System developers are worried that users without knowledge will vote Cardano and ADA in a wrong direction, while users are worried system developers are only concerned with the technology and not user ability among the ordinary guy. Maybe that is going to be the real beauty with the decentralized Cardano, a fine tuned middleway which benefits all?

I’m bit concerned by this press ban on Cardano in some opinion making crypto media. Also 1000 offers to get free Etherum under each Charles post on Twitter. And that he can’t get his blue badge there.
It feels like that Cardano is not in some kind of “big boys club”. This may be obstacle for mass adoption.

You´re right, everyone has a right to vote …Wherever he/she wants, yet democracy shouldn´t work that way!
I m not developer, i m industrial engineer and yes i m very concerned about stupid voters, i will explain myself with this analogy
Why Trump wins elections, why Brexit happens even it would cause devastating results ? it was a consequence of stupid voters and lack of wisdom…
We are in a society that see crypto as go to moon, lambo … instead of looking at it as freedom and relief to our slavery by the financial system that we are rolling deep in!

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Rick, I am sorry if I have hurt anyone’s feelings, and of course it is important for anyone to express their opinion, and you are always welcomed in a discussion. But the point here is not about peasants or non-peasants. I don’t think it is irrational to be concerned about one of the two only functionalities in the system that rely on the rational majority assumption.

  1. We have the consensus itself - the Ouroboros is the honest-majority family consensus and relies on the majority of active stake to be honest.

  2. We have the treasury, which is a permissionless open-participation system that relies on the majority of active stake to be rational.

Those are only two parts of the system that imply some trust. It’s not a trust in a company or in a person, of course, but a trust in “the crowd”. Those are just my concerns, I have clearly stated that it is not an absolute, and that I’m not an expert in the field, and that concern might be irrational :slight_smile:

But I think it is extremely important to be aware of those “bottlenecks” of trust, and be aware of what benefits or problems they could bring. Why would it be ok, to have extensive discussions about possible dishonest nodes and right consensus incentives, but suddenly it is not ok to imply some irrational voters and that open-participation voting system MIGHT easily bring massive problems?

One day I might encounter an argument that will fortify my trust in the system, but, sorry, “just have faith in humans” is not this argument. And this is exactly why we discuss the first treasury paper in the separate thread. And exactly why we will be discussing the incentives paper, once it is released.

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The “devastating results” is purely opinion. That is why voting is important.

And I am not referring to you as the developer. I am referring to the developers of cryptocurrency. I am glad that the Cardano Foundation believes that users are smart enough to vote for what they want to see a crypto currency achieve.

Edit: I also have to say that the 2 people on here who expressed concerns about “stupid voters” have also expressed anti-Trump sentiment on this forum.

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You did not hurt my feelings. I was active US military for 23 years, it will take a bit more than a social media post to hurt my feelings.

I have seen this same opinion expressed in other forums and wanted to provide my opinion as a counter weight so when other people come on these forums, they do not think we are an arrogant lot, and see that we are willing to discuss our differences.

The problem is that we believe that we have rights and indeed we have yet we do not consider the obligations that come with those rights

I m pretty sure that you are well informed about Cardano and most of all you care!
If it exists some project to vote on, i think you would dive in the available information in the subject to be able to vote correctly as your perception in the mutter …

Now, would you assure to me that every voter would be so conscious of the importance of his/her vote and do the necessary diligence to learn to be able to vote correctly ?