I didn’t address you 1 single time, or else would be DIRECTLY. I will now @HumptyDumpty.
Anger and hate?
You got be one of those feeble-minded woken leftists right?
I will suggest you to take a smart pill; the chill pill ain’t cutting it in your case obviously.
You got to be on a psychotic break, or you are some kind of personality cult freak, so:
It’s not MY case, it’s THE case; which anyone with an actual mind can understand.
I’m not presenting NOTHING thats knew, for the ones who too have and use the mind, just REMINDING.
If YOU are a cynical hypocrite and live well with that, thats on you; move along. And btw I write in the manner I see fit; wouldn’t ever be a something-to-be that was going to tell me how to be.
So, if after all I wrote you still question what is the problem for me, move along, nothing to see here.
The suggestion is simply let morons take the fall, PERIOD.
Not a bad idea. Especially when you think about how important adoption is, and how these scams are really damaging the growth of this industry, not to mention the personal financial devastation to those scammed. I wouldn’t point the finger of judgement at IOHK or affiliates, as it’s always anyones personal responsibility to do diligence before any transaction-this is written in section 1.9 Liability, under Terms of Service, in Daedalus (yeah, I actually read these things.) Having said this, I still think a warning before sending could be a good idea. You just have to look at it from a legal perspective. Putting a warning like that into the wallet could present legal issues for IOHK etc, and maybe that’s why they can’t? Truth be told though, I can’t understand how anyone could think sending money to receive money makes any sense? I don’t know…
Only fast scanned this thread, so some of the things I’m about to say may be said before.
I don’t think a wallet developed by the same company that develops the protocol should set up a service that ‘decides’ which addresses are fraudulent and which are not. This would undermine the openness and decentralized nature of the network. Of course it’s an open protocol and everyone is free to make their own wallets and services that implement this.
However, even if you believe it’s only the user’s own fault that they fell for the scam, it’s too easy to just say that users are solely responsible. We have to acknowledge that there’re a lot a greedy and/or dumb users that will keep falling for these kind of scams and not doing anything can drive users out of the crypto space and oppose mass adoption.
Some easy steps that are not too intrusive for more experienced or observant users can be taken. E.g. when opening the wallet for the first time (while you’ll have to wait for the synchronization of the blockchain anyway in a full node wallet) some ‘next’-style slides with common scams and things to look out for explained in easy words can be displayed. Maybe with a mandatory checkbox on the last slide that the user understands everything (and links too more information or maybe a video with more information that can be played). This will inform new users and someone installing the wallet for the second, third,… time can easily and fast click through the slides.
Also on the send tab a highlighted short reminder message can be displayed, with a link/checkbox to dismiss and never show again.
Everyone who opposes these almost non intrusive measures is just being stubborn imho.
If you are pushed away from any system not beacuse of the faulty implementation of the same but due to your own failled dilligence to understand it, I can’t really see this any other way than, you’re fault.
And if so, IMO, move on to any other system you see fit for you, that’s all. Just don’t come here like a repented madeleine due to your own mistakes and above all pointing fingers all around when you should just be pointing it to the mirror, thats where all the blame is.
You really think that anybody living in 2021 is willing to “waste” time with
?
Beacuse this is as equal as do a little tiny bit of research about the crypto topic, and I’ll cut my balls off if you don’t get popped up with warnings about scams ALL around.
So this is a fruitless discussion while anyone is willing to pamper “humans” who can’t be bothered to learn by themselves, and even in the case where you pamper them with warnings and videos they will just skip it due to “time waste subjects”. Altough it’s not entirely their fault for being so dismissive.
The crap EULA culture “just scroll down and check the box” did it’s job as much as the “games” microsoft implemented with '95 educated the masses on how to surf their OS.
Still, we are living in 2021, IMHO, NO EXCUSE AT ALL.
I will never talk about this topics again, already shared more than enough; and I conclude with:
if anybody thinks the problem is the experienced users having to “waste time” checking boxes and moving on, you are on the wrong side of the question. the experienced users ALREADY bothered THEMSELVES to LEARN how this is played.
You’re missing the point, it’s not about the experienced user, but about the inexperienced one.
Also, I never said something like the EULA culture you’re talking about, I was talking about a couple of clear slides, a totally different thing. Also, if they just skip without looking and then they fall for a scam, so be it, it’s their problem, the wallet did try to warn them. Any more measures to avoid it would be too intrusive.
I completely agree with you.
Reading your post I actually realize how strange it is that Daedelus which is used by more involved/informed users does have warnings… while Yoroi which most moderate and new users will be using does not have anything of that kind.
I just read the post from astroboysoup in the “Lost 220 thousand ADA”-thread. They seem to be implementing exactly the sort of thing i was talking about.
Blockquote Isolate intelligence content. … We will make lists of malicious wallet addresses available to wallet software and online exchanges so that new users can be warned when they are about to send money to them, and given a chance to read more about giveaway scams.
and further down at the end of his post
Blockquote A user on Yoroi, when submitting a send transaction will get an alert message letting them know that the address could be a negative address that has been used or is related to a scam.
So glad to see that someone is actually already working on this and even on a lot more.
The problem with the scam addresses is that they can be created dynamically very quickly. We can build it out to track and trace where the money flows once we have a confirmed address.
I totally agree with the simple design change with a warning to users of possible scams.
The problem with the wallets is that they don’t have the verified data.
That is what we are trying to solve.
Professor Nick Nikiforakis is working on the automation and scam detection side of things and that is doing quite a good job of taking out the scam websites. His Twitter Bot announces all of the websites that his scam tools have already taken out. He’s well over 200 websites so far.
It is now also taking out fake Daedalus wallet websites.
What I’m working on now is to take on some of the data that Prof. Nikiforakis has gathered and provide it in an open API for developers and users to use.
Here is the Github repo for it at the moment:
I have to work out what domain name to place it all on. Little things.
Once that is up and running, a wallet developer can use the API to do a lookup to see if an address has been flagged as a scam address.
We’ll be putting in more code behind the scenes that will be crawling and following the money. We will know when ADA from a scam wallet is being transferred to exchange and will be able to have their accounts blocked and possibly be returned at that point.
We’re also extending it to domain names so that we can build a Chrome extension that will flag the site when the user is on it OR build it into Yoroi or Nami wallet which is already browser extension based wallets.
We have a Project Catalyst proposal up at the moment that is in the ideation stage.
Because the wallet is JUST a tool, it’s up to you to DYOR and learn to wield it. As a developer I’d close this thread with the label PEBCAK. or to quote Douglas Adams ~ “A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.”. It mayt have been an expensive lesson you learned, I hope you learned it. Now go and report it the scam and progress forwards with the wisdom in researching things before you just throw cash at it. Take your time and read before you put your cash in a strangers hand.
Circular-saws are just tools, yet they have stickers warning you of pretty obvious dangers.
Closing this tread and labeling it as PEBKAC, knowing that 100’s if not 1000’s of people are losing their life-savings seems a bit harsh to me.
And by the way, just to be clear, the assumption that I have been a victim of these scams is not correct.
Sometimes people just care about other people, no-matter how stupith they have been in your opinion.
Yes that does suck, but why are/did they? Just advocate people take a class and it link to one on install or suggest that they hire a broker. If the issue is not caused by the wallet, it’s not the wallet’s fault. Although, I guess the wallet could add a pop-up for the first 1000 transactions asking “are you sure that you want to preform this transaction, at these rates, with this person?”
I’m sorry you got screwed, I myself bought a false token before and got burned. However, I know that it was my fault because I didn’t check the hex code back to the token I wanted and rushed it and didn’t read up on what I thought it was. So I learned from that and when I got a twitter message offering FREE TOKENS, I took a beat and googled it and saw if it was real. Then when I learned it wasn’t, I reported it so that it could be taken care of;
My friend make NO mistake; You’re attempting to gamble with your assets in the hopes of growing the pot. There is no free lunch and a fool and his money are soon parted. If it was a hack that drained your acct, I’d be 1000% on your side. However, as a developer I get stuck with your argument. Because the wallet enacted the transaction YOU asked for, and now you are upset that you jumped the gun and didn’t really want to do that at all.
You need to be more realistic, it’s not a game where the admin can undo something. I HONESTLY do wish folks were smarter or at least just more honest and that this happened to no-one, However, you need to think of this more like shopping at a bazaar rather than a mall. There are no returns, no undos, no merchant dispute form. Caveat Emptor man because the wallet has NO idea what you MEANT to do, only what it is you said you wanted to do. And while you’re not happy with the outcome, you have to agree that at the end of the day, it just did what you told it to do.
Again my friend, I don’t say it is the wallets fault and I didn’t got screwed.
You are barking against the wrong tree, I am very sorry for your anger.
I hope Cardano will see mass adaption.
If that is the path to aim for, I think you need to realise the follwoing:
1.) 50% of the people is below avarage when it comes to IQ
2.) 95% of the people has no interest nor knowledge about crypto
3.) 80% of the people has barely any idea of how a computer works.
4.) 99% of the people are not developers.
If you are looking for mass-adaption, that are the people to be worried about.
I am to a developer and I am to dealing with this same frustrating issue for over 20 years now.
I understand your frustrations and I understand your idea that it isn’t your responsibility, perhaps I should had phrased it differently.We might not understand each other entirely but let’s just agree that adding a static text-message doesn’t have to cost more then 30 to 60 minutes for someone that knows the codebase..
Scamming is sickening. I guess it will be dealt with in time.
There’s a difference between being scammed because you were driven by greed (as most fake youtube videos tap into people’s greed) and those unfortunate souls who have lost Ada through not having security in place.
I wouldn’t want Daedalus chucking out warnings. Society is infantilised enough already with adults being treated like children by Governments.
In crypto we paddle our own canoes in life and want to break away from certain ‘chains’ in society. It’s our responsibility to proceed with caution. It’s our responsibility to ensure we have adequate security in place. It’s our responsibility to smell a scam and not engage.
I am responsible for the opening volley on this thread but this is becoming less productive as it continues. I love cussing like a sailor and ranting as much as anyone but this is a public forum for folks that are interested in what Cardano could achieve and hopefully want the project to become something pretty awesome over the next few years.
Ideally we would all be sharing information and ideas to make this community better as a whole. Like the kind of stuff @astroboysoup posted. Apparently my jab about using AI to stop idiots is one of their stretch goals. Kudos!
Unfortunately it is entirely too easy for scammers to rotate addresses and delivery method so this may yield a post-crime solution more so. If you optimize OCR for YouTube, they’ll use Twitter, etc. Isolate the patterns and they switch it up. It will be a never ending game of cat and mouse. Maybe attack the cheese? Removing the incentive for scamming would be a crushing blow.
I suspect the exchanges will be onboard with using an API for leveraging the data to flag or prevent monetization of transactions that can be traced to originating from a scam on-chain. Most of them already collect the KYC needed. Policing where and how currency is entering and leaving exchanges is an area that likely needs improvement. The giant wave of new regulation laws that will hold them accountable for securities fraud is all the motivation exchanges need however.
Of course this is unlikely to actually stop people from being susceptible or falling for the scam but it may someday be able to bring real world consequences to those involved and make it prohibitively dangerous to continue. Retribution can be almost as good as prevention in some cases.
@astroboysoup Do you need another programmer? I have not used PHP in forever but I can dust off those skills or work on another piece of the puzzle that plays to my strengths. Do you have a way of identifying and tracing scam addresses with the bot yet?
Otherwise I got nothing more constructive to add other than I think the horse is sufficiently dead.
