Why are wallets not taking any responsibility?

What about a simple onboarding the first time you do a transaction… show people what to do and warn them for common scams?
What about transactions above ?1000? ada have a default warning for common scams? (which you can manually turn of ofc.)
What about a simple button “Send To GiveAway Now!”, when you click it, you get a big warning?
I am just making this up as I write so I bet there are much more and far better ideas than this,… why is this not happening?

It wouldn’t take to much effort for them to build that it doesn’t cost anything.
And isn’t educating their users part of their responsibility?

What about people thinking for themselves?

This is an open source project. Make a pull request on the GiHub repository if the effort is so minimal. You obviously can create this feature yourself since you are able to estimate the effort required …

Developers typically get paid anywhere between $50 - $150 per hour depending on skills, experience, etc.

I personally charge $80-90 per hour for the type of JavaScript/TypeScript web application UI “warning” feature you are asking for.

Unfortunately you also are asking for a way to detect when people are being idiots and that might require a trained convolutional neural net model with C/C++/Python and more complex AI technology I would typically charge $120+ per hour for before we could make the UI feature successfully.

So if you don’t have these skills I suggest hiring a team of developers with all the skills required for anywhere between $250,000 to $500,000 over the next year and see if it’s worth it?

No. Education is always your responsibility as a human, user, or anything relevant.
Alternately, as mentioned if you want to donate a few hundred thousand ADA perhaps some developers could be taken off of smart contracts, bug fixes, and other tasks. This will help users who can’t seem to spend 5 minutes learning anything or using common sense because they will obviously pay attention to a new popup warning …

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Immediate apology,

No offense meant. I am not trying to be overly harsh or critical.

I have just spent decades dealing with this exact issue throughout my entire career. It’s very exhausting. I can’t even imagine how Charles Hoskinson and all the developers mental health is not utterly destroyed over this last year. Trying to explain the reality of the situation to folks who have the best intentions at heart is a delicate matter that can be brutally depressing to those involved.

In my professional software engineering opinion: There is no elegant, easy, or successful solution that can be made entirely with code for the fundamental root cause of user error. I speak from over 20 years of experience with code and users. I could be wrong, but Cardano seems to have bigger problems to address first.

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I agree with Huppeldepup. Just saying “Its your own fault if you fell for a scam” will not prevent or change anything for future victims.

I understand that once the transaction to the scammers is sent, there is no way to get it back. So for me it also seems reasonable to do something in the interface of the wallets, right before the transaction is sent. We even know the scammers wallet-addresses and could report them at a central database for example.

Here is a (photoshopped) situation in yoroi i wish people would see if they are in the progress of sending their ADA to spammers:

yoroi_scam_warning

(The wording could be better of course) So i as a person could also do more against these scams, by not only flagging the youtube-videos, but also to report the scammers addresses and maybe save some people of making a big mistake.

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Something like this would be great! Or a simple reminder like “Have you googled if your transaction is not based on a scam?” … I think this would have stopped me :zipper_mouth_face:

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Such a nice illustration, however, I think it’s good and bad at the same time.

For example: You are an honest crypto holder, but you had an argue with a person. That person is supported by a huge army, and asked all the followers to report your address as scam.

Suddenly, you are a scammer, meanwhile you are not. Giving power to the community has flows in it, and maybe it should be administered by a trusted entity who is neutral.

As far as i understand, there is already the “Cardano Fraud Detection Bureau”. So maybe the wallets could show alerts depending on their investigation-status like:
“Warning, the address … is currently under investigation by the Cardano Fraud Detection Bureau”
or
“Warning: the address … has been verified as a fraud by the Cardano Fraud Detection Bureau”

That way, if wrongly accused, you would be removed from the list.

I don’t know if you see the videos hoskinson posts, and at this time I’m too afraid to ask.

He does say a warning could be built-in the freaking wallets, and wtf does that say about people over 18 freaking years old? JUST as he mentions.

You ever wonder why you have so many “only after this age” sh*ts around?

I’ll let you a thought that I wish you could understand about crypto.

In portugal you need to be 18+ years to be able to make movements in YOUR bank account, which you can hold BEFORE 18.

Ever wonder why? Maybe beacuse it’s the “adult age”? Maybe beacuse it’s thought to be the age that a human already achieved the necessary level of maturity to know what may/may not do?

I don’t think theres many underaged kids going around with their parents/siblings/girlfriends/boyfriends credit card buying crypto.

SO…

It’s horrendous everyday watching F*CKING ADULTS comming here to COMPLAIN like FCKING KIDS.

Grow up.

cheers

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This. While I’m no actual IT professional myself, I have spent considerable time doing various kinds of tech support, low-level development and even some teaching over the years. (And have found that the same mechanics apply in practically any profession).

I’ll happily explain something for the hundredth time to someone who is genuinely trying to grasp it, however desperately. Even when I don’t think they’ll ever make it, I respect and support their effort. But when it comes to those entitled individuals who can’t even be bothered to carry their own weight, I’ve long since run out of f***s to give.

I don’t know Charles or any other Cardano developers personally, but I have been following their public channels since 2017. I have never seen him this tired and frustrated:

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[quote=“Roman1, post:4, topic:69409, full:true”]
I agree with Huppeldepup. Just saying “Its your own fault if you fell for a scam” will not prevent or change anything for future victims. (…)[/quote]

I agree that we shouldn’t simply blame the victims. Even when the fault is theirs, it’s not very constructive. But if they are the ones who somehow screwed the pooch, then we must point it out to them or they’ll never learn.

We’re getting flooded by people who got taken in by the money-doubling scam (literally one of the oldest and most basic scams there is, btw — if you think it’s bad now, better buckle up…). All of them deserve sympathy and help. Most take it, and move on from their loss a little wiser. Some persist in blaming everyone and everything but themselves, and, well…

Your proposal has merit. I suspect wallet developers will add something similar to it in the end, possibly limited to transactions to “new” contacts or with an opt-out toggle for more experienced users. It isn’t too hard to implement, and given the amount of dung they’re receiving now…

Linking it to a centralised database, however, is a different matter. That would take a lot of work, go completely against what this ecosystem is meant to achieve, and would still be abused seven ways to sunday as soon as it went live anyway.

A decentralised “reputation” system, with an algorithm also weighing a wallet’s cast votes against that wallet’s history (diversity in transactions, total number of up- and downvotes, …) might have its uses in the future. That’s a little harder to add though :slight_smile: It’ll still be abused, too, but the benefits may yet come to outweigh the disadvantages.

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I fell for the giveaway-scam and blame no other than myself. But regarding the technology I think it is too easy to say “There is nothing we can do”.

A mechanism would be good where it is possible to kind of freeze a transaction for a certain time (1h, 2h) - maybe even with higher transaction fees - with an option to reverse the transaction in this timeframe. That doesnt sound impossible to me.

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Man just please understand the concept of this f`cking industry.

Is it that hard to grasp?

I don’t know what is going on with you lots getting scammed. How da f*ck someone falls for that???

Why da f*ck you want to have disabilities in the wallets?

Are u desabilitated? I don’t understand this sh*tstorm about ragers who are simply NOOBS regarding the online world.

I’ll have a catalyst proposal to fund a rehab house for those who are scammed so they can share their so so so sad stories amongst themselves.

It’s ridiculous that you ask to be pampered with disabilities here and there. What is going on…

cheers

Honestly, I am a bit offended but after reading my own post… you might have been too :wink:
So lets shake hands and see were we can go from here.

I am to a developer and I am to dealing with this same frustrating issue for over 20 years now.
I understand your frustrations and I understand your idea that it isn’t your responsibility, perhaps I should had phrased it differently.

PEBKAC, we all know that… but on the end, someone needs to deal with it.
I have experienced that fighting the fact that users are not willing to inform themselves is not improving anything… and it will even drain the love for your project.
Accepting it, find a good UX/UI designer and create simple solutions are a great way of dealing with this and I promise you it will release you from all the frustration you walk around with.

We might not understand each other entirely but let’s just agree that adding a static text-message doesn’t have to cost more then 30 to 60 minutes for someone that knows the codebase. (I do expect it to be fully styled by then too ;p)

I am not pushing for advanced blacklists, fraud detection systems or whatever complicated solutions.
Users are Lusers and the more complicated you make it… the less change it will actually work.

I love the design @Roman1 made, BUT I would implement it simpler.
When a user sends more then ?1000? ada (just check the value of the inputbox onchange), you show something like the following message:

Warning
You are about to send a lot of money.

  • Giveaways are SCAMS, do not participate.
  • Do not send coins to strangers.
  • Once you click submit, your money is GONE.

Helll, make them links where you can go into detail… or just link them to already existing yourube movies about the subject.

There is nothing complicated going on here, you implement this with a simple onChange handler on the amount input box and you show nothing then static html.

Solutions like this are effective, do not cost much money or effort to implement.
In my experience this will prevent more then 50% of users sending money to giveaways.
Add more text, make things more complicated and the effectiveness will go down hill.

I don’t know in what wallet you participate but if it is opensource and I can participate, I am happy to implement it when I finish my current project.

Whats the github url?

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I was having a frustrating day and being an exaggerated jerk for sure :sweat_smile:

Of course adding a simple banner alert to the top of a transaction dialog is easy. Hell probably 15-30 minutes with any flavor of the month UI framework.

The skinny version: it never helps

The folks getting took simply are not reading, heeding, or understanding any of the warnings. They already have a notification drawer with toasts that warn about scams in Daedalus. You could put warnings on every screen and confirmations on every button and people would still get scammed. That is ultimately why it’s so damn disappointing.

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For me the bottom line is that who falls for acts like this are what is known as “sheeple”.

It is what it is.

IOHK is a company, and as hoskinson said, they could in fact build that crap, brutalizing the already brutalized minds.

Would that help?

Does the implemented system help anybody? Doesn’t anyone stop to think that the millions drained of ADA that hoskinson talks about in this project alone, along with the rest of the cryptos, are a REALLY small portion of the billions/trillions that everyf*ckingbody is scammed every year as they submit the taxes reports?

Even in every transaction made we are paying usury fees no? No… right?

Let’s focus on the system that is still being implemented for about 13y while forgeting the one in what we grew ACCOSTUMED to ACCEPT that’s even WORST and is working for THOUSANDS of years. :clap:

“They live” should be a must watch for everyone living at the present time.

cheers

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No worries, I know the feeling :slight_smile:

I agree with you that it won’t solve the problem, yet I do think it will help.
And even if it doesn’t help, you as a supplier show that you care and have invested the time and effort to at-least try and prevent some of it from happening.

People don’t read, they don’t look and they are rushed into decisions without taking the time to rationalize. Yet they do blame anyone but themselves for their mistakes and it will become harder and harder to ignore. There is a reason for warnings on medication, banking apps, power-tools and hot coffee(ffs). As so I think there could be a good point to make to place warnings on a crypto-currency payment application.

You tell me that users are already bombarded with warnings in Daedalus, yet I as a fairly new and moderate ADA holder haven’t seen a single warning about scams or giveaways until I saw my first giveaway on youtube and did my research on it. (I am not using daedalus, i am using yoroi)

I just cloned the Yoroi front-end code, looks like an awesome project. It doesn’t seem to complicated to add some warning logic in there yet it doesn’t feel right to just rogue-code in some hacky warning logic in there and expect my pull-request to be accepted. I also think that aldue the idea is good, it would probably be worth to think about this a bit more with the help of a UX/UI designer.

I as a user wouldn’t like to endup in a wallet that is screaming warnings about everything on every page, yet I am sure there must be a middle way.

This is just my 2cents, hope it might open new perspectives or fuel new ideas
If I can be of any help, I am happy to put some time and effort in to it but please let me know how I can participate without wasting anyones time :wink:

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Thats why i meant to only show a warning, if the user enteres a known scammers address (= address is investigated/flagged by the Cardano Fraud Detection Bureau). So if you made normal transactions before and nothing was shown, it will have a bigger impact, if suddenly a warning appears.
Btw i agree with everything you wrote.

If this technology should get mass-adoption there will be a lot of “noobs” or sheeple coming in. Wallets should have some front-end ‘safety-measures’ without tampering with the underlying technology.

Like a first-open information-page (with types of scams and other dangers), or to mandatory opt-out of noob-mode where “security features” like simple delays persist or additional warnings are displayed.

This should not be regarded as disabilities in wallets but customer-service.

IOG - Daedalus - Warnings? YES

Emurgo - Yoroi - Warnings? NO (thankfully and hopefully never will)

You want a more first-open information SYSTEM, not PAGE, than the freaking internet itself? OK… You want the noobs to have all the ultra-light lift done for them? That’s another story. Maybe that way they will be kept being observed as what they are, worthless abject minions; is that good for them? To be kept brutalized like some unaware of itself animal? OK…

Customer-service within a open source project. OK…

Don’t you ever, again, stop to think why until now, to my knowledge, theres not even 1 catalyst proposal that got funding to work that question? Let alone, possibly, that not even such preposterous ideas are in fact being voted.

Catalyst is community driven, I do not see the community worried about millions of ADA being scammed every month. Maybe beacuse the community does use the discernment and good-sense of how ridiculous it is to be scammed in 2021; and yes there are other things to worry about rather than noobs.

cheers

@Roman1 I like your idea but I also do see a few flaws in there that you might overlook.
The most obvious one for me (as a developer) is the amount of work and maintenance that goes in a feature like that. This is not something you build in a day, week or month.
Then and I guess this might be the biggest issue, user are lazy as fck and blindly put their trust in anything digital. If you say that you “block all reported scam-addresses” a user will read “block all scam-addresses” and will blame you for not blocking a yet unreported scam address. Put on top of that that it is rather easy to create new addresses and you are putting a lot of time and effort in a solution that doesn’t solve the problem. There might be a moment when the capacity is there and I can see something like that be implemented in the far future, yet for now it seems out of reach to me.

What would you think about @R_NBG idea of creating an on-boarding page or/and combined with a “noob-mode”. This would all be static and requires a more acceptable amount of effort, would you think it would do good, would you have ideas of improving on that?

@jpsrrv dude, take a chill-pill my friend, why the anger why the hate?
You have wrongly assumed and called me multiple things in your posts and I can assure you, it doesn’t help presenting your case. I am very interested in your perspective but if you want people to listen to what you have to say, please lower your tune, at-least pretend to respect people and contribute instead of just breaking things down.
Why is showing a warning before sending money in Yoroi be a problem for you?
And what would be a suggestion to resolve that problem for you while still improving on the current situation?