Will ADA Whales Ever Give Up Their Power?

English General Discussions
144

I think you meant Lovelace’s, 20 of em’
Yes this is a long read and I am worried that I must defend the Whales.
I must hold some type of free market idea that is leaning toward capitalism and truth and honesty (not saying any of these work), and these idea’s push me to voice the little bit of unnerving uneasiness that I am feeling about this thread.

  • I do not see how the Gini index proposed would serve a decentralized network, this I think would only open up a new set of problems like bias to name just one (I do hold a bias that I am not ashamed of) and if it was sponsored by the CF than I think the CF would truly be entering into some kind of uncharted waters that would be hard to defend as they work toward decentralizing more than just a block chain, imo a clever off network index would be useful for the community that is willing to debate the issue away from Cardano with qualified participant’s from their respective region that would be listed on the index - a Dapp could be built to cast ballots on the outcome of debates but the Cardano development team ought not be dragged into a system that has the likeness of what we all were raised under.
  • Domination is inevitable by vote, the majority will make a vote and the investors that chose to lock up their funds during the ICO might just have an upperhand in the vote but why should that concern us? I knew exactly what i was putting my hard earned cash into when I bought into Cardano: an ICO that was developed by a team that I could trust in crypto, I am sorry for people who blindly bought into ADA and are now coming around to what that ICO resulted in and want to be a part of it’s development; but they have no right to assert themselves against the early adopter’s that invested in a “maybe” their money could make a return, the people that have essentially been the support of the project, these people that were willing to invest in a decentralized platform do not deserve to have the Cardano community centralize in paranoia against them and should be rewarded for their investment by enjoying all of the perk’s that come with the developments of Cardano - and if those people choose to hodl 7 digits of ADA to have a vote worth weight - or 10 digits it should not be a problem for us, yes the community should be aware that yes you are involved in something that was built to be decentralized but early adopter’s and even buyer’s might just take enough of the network that they control the future of it, and in the case that it goes against what it is you want then fork the code! Take what you love and make it better than what you did not love in the original setup - easy peasy, or, serve up some really good idea’s that are not going to bring bias into the picture, some idea’s for resolution that do not involve the same shit that college kids are taught to reference, and a resolution to what you think is a problem that does not affect the whales right to stake a vote.

Cardano was not dreamt up to be the coin of today, it has years and years of development in front of it before it reaches its full potential , now is not the time to worry about whales, now is the time to ask the Whales to contribute to the distribution, to contribute to the platform they have invested in, but bringing a thread like this now when Cardano is not yet fully functional and raising concerns about the who it is that is holding Cardano and threatening them with community action serves nobody that has ADA in their portfolio.

Just my 2LL

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145

Guys, anybody have seen the lightweight delegation and heavyweight delegation of Stake.

20%20PM
Screen Shot 2018-02-22 at 8.42.20 PM.png1776×656 90.2 KB

In Heavyweight delegation, issuer can post only one certificate per epoch to prevent bloat attack(assuming Whales).
Threshold is 0.03% of stake.

That’s not the case with Lightweight delegation

Please see if this helps in creating liquid democracy.

To be honest, I’m not really clear about this and I’m waiting for a whiteboard video on same. I saw video of treasury model, but it doesn’t go into detail

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@anon20038177 Thank you for your comments. I already wrote What is Cardano’s Purpose? in anticipation of many of these points.

Some of your more impassioned points make quite a few inaccurate assumptions about my original post, my knowledge of the platform, and my intentions. :slight_smile: Nevertheless, I understand you were venting a bit and this is a long thread so some of the concepts might start blending together in unintended ways. The other Cardano purpose thread might provide some helpful context for my original post in this thread.

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This is old info, its outdated!

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Some initial thoughts on this topic.

I would recommend to have accounts weighted based on the ADAs they hold between 1 - 1000.

This weight would be used in voting, staking, not the number of ADAs an account holds.

If an account has 10m or 100m ADAs, the weight would still be 1000 to limit influence of whales. It would obviously not be a linear distribution rather a logarithmic one to determine the weight based on the amount of ADA an account holds.

Also the weight between 1 - 400 would be considered as LOW, 401 - 700 as MEDIUM and 701 - 1000 as HIGH.

Now for LOW value accounts anonimity would be accepted to vote & stake.

MEDIUM value accounts would need to have pseudo-anonimity to vote & stake. (The identity management soultion could be built on top of Cardano, having Cardano Foundation overseeing it.)

HIGH value accounts would need to be named. So even if this is a break of privacy I don´t see it as a being against democracy. Powerful whales may exists, but they would have to be publicly known & act responsibly or sell their ADAs until they reach a MEDIUM account stage. There must be a price to pay of being a whale, which is being a public figure with transparency & responsibility to the power & influence they have and actions they make.

Certain measures would be implemented for the whales to cost them tremendous effort & inconvenience to bypass the above policy. Redistribution of their ADAs to separate MEDIUM value accounts (maybe to 100-1000 accounts) as they are pseudo-anonym, they would still need to have a unique Proof-of-Identity per account.

Or even worse a redistribution to LOW value accounts (maybe to 10.000 - 100.000) due to the management overhead of the number of accounts. There should be some maintenance effort / cost / complexity per account, so once you have such mass number of accounts the effort becomes way to expensive.

Also as Cardano supports metadata for transactions, these redistribution attempts by whales could be monitored and Cardano could make virtual link between accounts enforcing still the rules to apply.

Obviously this approach is not worked out, it´s just an initial though, but to summarize:

  • Voting, Staking would not depend on the ADAs an accounts hold, but the weight determined by a logarithmic function
  • Accounts to be categorized as low value, medium value, high value based on the weight
  • Based on Account category, you would have anonimity, pseudo-anonimity or zero-anonimity (named) policy to allow voting or staking
  • There would be certain well thought out measures implemented to make redistriubtion of ADAs to Medium, Low value accounts non-worthy, extremely hard, expensive and inconvenient for whales. Also such redistribution patterns would be monitored and such accounts would be virtually linked together still representing the total weight.

…

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150

@ADALove I wonder, can you paint a picture for the readers of what a (couple of) worst case scenario(s) would look like? Perhaps if the issue you highlighted here would have a more “material” form it would not only help people understand your point better, but maybe even yield a more fruitful dialog with adversaries of the idea that this is a problem. Maybe. I dunno, at this point the trenches may have already been dug :laughing:
If anything, it’s gonna help a few souls – me included – get a better handle on this. Many thanks and sorry for casually requesting work from you like that. :roll_eyes:

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Never ever in the history of humankind, the elites (whales) had the EXACTLY the SAME awards as small holders! The rewards for staking will be proportional to what you own, even if you only have 1 ada - its the same reward as if it was 100 mil ada.
My speculation whales will sell in 3-5-8 years , not less, and with mall batches

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152

Only in the US is “commie” a term of abuse. Everywhere else communism is seen as just another political ideology. It’s one that most people don’t share, but neither do they feel the need to vilify the believers. Or to scrupulously avoid anything that might be seen as having the slightest association with communism. The US is out on its own on this – as on other things, of course.

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it´s not communism to limit the influence of the whales … they would still be whales and have magnitudes bigger influence in voting & having much bigger part of benefits when staking in PoS, but they would be known as well. The numbers presented above were just indicative, the approach is what matters … but true, this is definitely not wild capitalism being proposed here as that´s a dangerous combination with complete anonymity and a threat on democracy. I believe in inequality within certain limits, until there is a healthy balance & harmony in the system.

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@Adafans_io This is the fourth time you’ve grossly distorted the words in my original post. Nobody ever said anything about making people equal. This is another example of why it’s impossible to communicate with you. Please, pull your head out of Ayn Rand’s a$$ and spend more time studying economic history before you embarrass yourself even more.

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This thread is longer than the blockchain.

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156

You’re twisting history, social status, financial resourcefulness and ideas of being rewarded in a way that is neither hard to agree nor disagree. It is unclear to me what you want to express other than your repulsion of an ideology that you seem to fail to understand.

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No I am not. Its the first time in history we have a censorship free data base that can “store” our value - rewards from compound interest is exactly the same (proportional) either you stake 1 or 1bil ada

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Reading this thread with interest, and the issues and questions seem very relevant.

A thought; this is linked to governance isn’t it? Would it be useful to look at criteria that are linked to ‘good governance’ and measure against these? Here some criteria that could be used (from Private Site):

  • Accountability
  • Transparency
  • Rule of law
  • Responsive
  • Equitable and inclusive
  • Effective and efficient
  • Participatory
  • Consensus oriented

There seem to be several issues in the current system if we look at some of these :thinking:

It’s OK to counter a point with arguments, but shall we avoid this type of fallacy on the forum? I think it will be a more pleasant and agreeable place if we do.

Yes, totally agree, that ‘label’ doesn’t stick here :slightly_smiling_face:. No political or economic ideology is free of problems (both in theory and in practice). Democracy is also flawed in many ways (potentially fatally), as is communism. If we want to be able to deal with the predicaments our society is in, then we’ll have to be able to put our dogmas to the side (talking in general here, time to start to get some common sense back in society), and start to listen to others who don’t share our opinions. We may actually learn something from it, and be able to build something together…

And guess what, the blockchain may actually be one of the tools we need to get out of social, economic and political cluster***k we’re in… :wink:

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I think this forum should not be just a Cardano fan club. Merits, faults, criticisms, etc. all should be discussed. Most importantly politely.

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161

LOL thanks for the laugh

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162

Curious what Mises or Rothbard would think about crypto?

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There is another perspective that I have yet to hear anyone suggest - a counter point.

With any movement or macro change, there is a birthing period, infantcy . . . Adolescence. The strategies & needs change dependent upon many factors, as growth increases.

What if there are entities with Billions who would wish to purchase a controlling portion of Cardano in these infant years??? Entities who mean harm, not good.

What if to prevent a hostile takeover, Charles had a few people he knew he could trust?

People to keep the controlling interest until the time that Cardano became too Big for governments / global banks to mess with . . .

There are pros to centralization just as there are cons. We need to be aware of these.

The Est. World does not want Cardano to succeed, its a war out there.

I believe Charles did the right thing.

I also believe, in time with massive profits, those whales will make purchases

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The issue is that we just don’t know :thinking:. The whales may be benign/ supportive, or they may be less so. I don’t know if there is an issue here or not. As you say, there are stakeholders with different interests/ agendas. Are there adequate checks and balances in place to avoid potential abuse of power? We don’t know.

For now there is no transparency, so it is impossible to assess the risks based on what we have…

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