Concerned over ITN and extended rewards

English General Discussions
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Hey.

There’s been a lot of debate about the ITN and its possible continuing. Safe to say, it’s a good demonstration of the value of Voltaire.

Just to clarify - I am not contending base facts. ITN is a distributed blockchain network, a decentralized system and indeed, no one can stop ITN operators, nor its users from continuing on.
Similarly, the code is open source and developers could continue the network. All of this is self-evident.
Furthermore, I’m also inclined to believe that because IOHK sees value in the network, there is value. I don’t wish to debate these parts.

My cocern is solely centered around the idea of further funding ITN via mainnet ADA rewards, even if only for one additional month.

  1. The vote is problematic

Again. Arguing over whether the ITN can continue to run or can fork the code is pointless. They are absolutely able to and this is by design, as stated.

But IF the ITN is to be further subsidized by mainnet rewards, then asking the ITN participants alone is problematic. They are the beneficiaries of these rewards, why should they reject them?

And at the other end - as any reduction of staking rewards detract from the ADA token value (thinking goes: future rewards are priced in), why are those who bought and are presently holding said ADA not asked?
It all amounts to a “About us, without us” scenario.

The ITN has ~40% ADA staked - this means the majority who are to subsidize such rewards are not asked for consent. Furthermore, many deliberately bought large amounts of ADA only to reduce their positions after the ITN snapshot. Not all 40% actually represents people presently invested in the project.

We live in times where national banks are presently engaging in hitherto unheard levels of wealth redistribution through money printing and selective propping up of markets.
Disapproval of such is rising and is quite literally seared into the genesis block of the blockchain which started a revolution.

Given this backdrop, having an entrenched, privileged minority voting on whether to enrich themselves with rewards otherwise intended for the broader community may seem a bit out of touch.

  1. It changes the monetary policy and may undermine trust

An oft touted benefit of Bitcoin is that its monetary policy is predictable and expressed directly in the code. It’s a literal instantiation of “code is law”.

By subsidizing the ITN, even for one month further, it will be proven possible for continued subsidy of the ITN or of other projects to tap into the rewards otherwise intended for staking which could affect price negatively.

Appeasing ADA investors isn’t and shouldn’t be the highest concern of IOHK. But one need look no further than Twitter and Youtube videos and commentary to realize that there is real concern over this issue.

Even if further subsidizing of ITN by way of mainnet ADA was the only way, and I do not believe it is, the stated benefit of a continued test-bed for rapid prototyping must be weighed against the possibility of alienating a large swath of present ADA holders who not only represent investors, but early believers and evangelists.

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No argument here. Total separation of incentives from the mainnet.
And protect the brand’s credibility.

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Dear pseud,

Thank you for your thoughts. All your concerns, and those of others are well noted, and all comments well understood.

We are now in the middle of discussing this, as in “what”, “how”, “when”, but also the “why” and as people rightly state, all of these matter.

This is a discussion, heated at times, it’s about arguments, ideas, comments, criticisms, etc. This will take a bit of time, and this will take a bit of energy, but this is how it goes when decisions are discussed.

It’s all good, because after the process we will all be wiser, more understanding, and we can then take it from there.

Thank you everyone for caring, for contributing, and for your patience :slight_smile:

— Nathan

(Side note: I’ve selected this post here rather randomly for my reply - I won’t be able to reply to other, similar posts and threads throughout the various channels.)

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My understanding is that the initial question was posed to the ITN pool operators. After all, if the quorum of validators don’t want to remain active, then there is no option but to shut down the operation. Given that the ITN pool operators seem to have kept their nodes up for the most part, it will now transition onto the mainnet ADA holders to decide what the future of the ITN will be. ADA holders can vote on how to handle the ITN going forward. Part of this includes the idea of creating a new genesis block to more accurately reflect the current state of the ADA ledger.

I understand what you’re saying, but at the same time, this monetary policy would be open and fair for every ADA holder. Yes, the trajectory of inflation changes a bit, but the overall max supply still does not change. As long as everyone is represented equally, I think that is the most important aspect.

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When you say that the monetary policy will be 1. open and 2. representative of ever ADA holder, how long will that be for?
Not only will the opinion of ADA holders change, regarding the appropriate quantity and duration of funds for the ITN, but the ADA holders themselves will change and those new holders must have their voice heard too. Hence the mainnet cannot be designated to be a long-term (and certainly not perpetual) source of funds for the ITN.
Thus the ballot to cease / commence and adjust funding for the ITN must be open very regularly, if not on a constant basis, i.e. every epoch.
How likely is it that such a ballot design will be accomodated?

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The ITN mints its own crypto. The proposal is for an extension of the rewards for one more month while people debate on what path the ITN should take. It would not be an extension that drains ADA from the miannet in perpetuity. That is absurd since the ITN mints its own coins. If the ITN becomes the test bench for Cardano it would mean that IOHK could deploy at a faster rate than before which has been problematic.Once the path of the ITN is decided then tADA would be listed on exchanges to provide liquidity to the ITN. A testnet with incentives is a superior model to others. I also do not think there should be another snapshot. The ITN was advertised extensively so there was a chance for people to join. People say they want another snapshot so that the ITN is more inclusive do in reality its greed that is motivating them. They simply want another snapshot to double their crypto holdings. This is unfair to us that put a lot of work into being part of the ITN. If they want to be included in the ITN they can go buy tADA at an exchange.

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  • Early ITN participants will be fairly rewarded with the ADA that they agreed to be paid, plus potentially an extra month or more of ITN extension ADA. Isn’t that enough?
  • A new snapshot would boost participation on ITN faster than pointing people to an exchange, then hoping that they go there, buy tADA specifically, and come back. If you want lots of people to participate on the ITN, don’t put hurdles in their way.
  • Hence, I disagree with your view on who is motivated by greed.
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The motivation to participate in the ITN for most was to test the network. To see it live. To test pools. To be part of something that is exceptional. I do not get your logic Rosa1234. No one will hope for people to buy tADA since the testnet will be used to test Dapps before they go live on the mainnet. This alone will provide a sufficient user base. If a new snapshot is taken there will be a great dump from those who seek profits. This will not only crater the price of tADA but it will also cause people to lose confidence in the project as a whole. That is why I believe a new snapshot is not prudent. If another snapshot does take place I stand to benefit. I can pull all my resources to profit greatly from the event. I am not interested in that but the longevity of the network. If we do it right Cardano will live long and prosper.

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I think this line of thinking is built on inconsistent logic.

If we believe that tADA has value (if not, why are we even having this debate?), why do we care if speculators dump it? I mean, if your whole argument is around the fact that participants of ITN are in it to test the network to further the development of Cardano, then as long as that is still the purpose of the future tADA chain (which is what the IOG team state) why would people lose confidence in the project as a whole? Isn’t the whole existence of ADA built around this notion that truth > perception? That if we can prove it, we don’t care what FUD others spread? ADA was dumped from $1.3 to $0.02. Did the project just die? No, it’s still here and stronger than ever.

If you believe that tADA will get tanked by speculators, that implies a lack of faith on the intrinsic value of the tADA chain. In which case why have it continue to be supported then? I used to subscribe to this line of thinking (that tADA only has as much value as the mainnet Treasury issues, therefore we should just start a fresh testnet for each experimental upgrade). I changed my mind after listening to Charles talk about the nature of the Rust build vs the mainnet Haskell one. But I still disagree that tADA should be exclusive to people before 2019-Nov. Overcompensation of older customers oftentimes lead to slower influxes of new-blood. That’s bad for business in the long run. Yes, there may be influxes of speculators and fair-weather followers as a result, but if you want the eco-system to grow you have to run through this problem sooner or later.

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The eco-system will grow regardless of another snapshot. There was plenty of time to get ready for the snapshot when it took place. tADA will not be exclusive to people before November 2019. When tADA is listed those that wish to use the ITN can by simply purchasing it. The eco-system will overflow with new blood. Oh so much new blood.

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I tried my best to have a logical discussion but this comment just oozes too much “got mine, buy your own” that I’m not sure further discussion will be productive.

Hard to argue with “new people can just buy my coins if they want to join”. And heck, a lot of us aren’t even that new. The last snapshot was a pandemic ago.

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I think this is exactly what a lot of us are fearing - Discussions regarding the “tADA chain and its value”. Not because it’s meaningless, or its price is meaningless.

But because it draws attention and energy away from ADA when handled ad-hoc, and creates confusion among the uninitiated, which can do damage to the mainnet ADA brand (if we could run a tesnet “behind the scenes” I would be all for that, but we can’t).

Personally, my main objection is still the lack of planning, not if we keep it right now, or not.
Go prudence!

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Guys and Girls…I really think we should all try to stay calm. I am pretty sure that Charles and the Team is coming up with a good plan on how to proceed with this matter and will carefully think things thru. We should wait for the paper or the video of Charles when he found a solution;)

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Does not sound very democratic.

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Another snapshot would be nonsense. If continue itn requires much human resources than they better focus on mainet release, if few clicks to add extra ada to run rewards why not to continue, but the first key is main net as soon as possible, everybody waiting it like him first baby born

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No another snapshot isn’t nonsense. It is such a good idea that IOHK has already written the code which is necessary for it to happen.

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Why they should do it? What else is not tested yet? Itn is for testing only

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Everyone is so focused on existing supply rewards but no mention of transaction profits and how this will effect the staking rewards or how it will be dispersed. Which will eventually far out perform existing supply rewards.

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Hi Steve (@sendit) great to see you here again, nothing has been finalised in regards to the ITN and it doesn’t need to detract from Mainnet, theres many possibilities.

I understand there are views that one scenario may detract value, monetary, from each of the entity’s and yes this is one possibility.

There can be coexistence through a symbiotic collaboration, there are advantages of keeping the ITN kicking. :vulcan_salute:

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The purpose of another snapshot is for anyone to have the chance to buy Ada coins and participate on voting to decide the fate of the ITN. I was able to participate in the Nov 2019 snapshot, though I regret for having only few Ada back then, so this being my case, I don’t have any problem on the plan to have another snapshot.

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