…iohk summit…

Here’s Charles’s thoughts on patents


Here is Charles speaking about the Summit.

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Already saw this. Thanks though. Let’s not forget, China just started to move into the developed world economy and has leveraged patent law. The same applies to India. Those two countries alone account for a significant amount of the worlds population.

I’d like to hear Charles state that IOHK or any entity that he works for or is hired by will not seek a patent off of software it creates including public institutions like a University. That would be fair based in his expressed thoughts in the video wouldn’t you say?

Here’s a video clip you might want to consider regarding incremental improvements to open source license code. Charles may be a brilliant engineer, but he’s not a lawyer.

The key here is incremental ideas are patentable based off of an existing idea in the public domain. Cardano is in the public domain. Incremental improvements can be made to it.

Carr & Ferrell - Patents are critically important to many kinds of businesses, particularly businesses that rely on technology and innovation for effective competition with others in their industry. The evolution of products in these types of industries tends to be so rapid and perpetual that it can be quite challenging just to keep up with the momentous progression, much less protect the ingenuity in a timely manner along the way. But the timely procurement of the protection a patent offers can provide businesses with five major benefits.

  1. First and foremost, patents enable limited monopolies for their owners . These monopolies often allow a company a quiet period of up to two decades or so to reap the exclusive benefits of resources invested in research and product development.
  2. A second benefit of patents is that patents protect the invention from unexpectedly leaving the business . Like a ball and chain tethered to the technology, the patent prevents ex-employees, customers, and competitors from taking the innovation and marketing their own competing products.
  3. Third, patents provide a tangible measure of research and product development output . Patents allow companies to keep score of how effectively their research efforts are producing innovative ideas and provide an excellent way of memorializing and organizing these inventions.
  4. Fourth, patents provide a business in a competitive industry with a defensive bargaining chip to exchange in the event that the business finds itself the target of someone else’s patent. This is often referred to as the defensive use of patents. Since patent owners may completely exclude others from practicing their inventions, the mere payment of money to a ptent owner may not be sufficient to enable an infringer to stay in business. Often the threat of a patent counterclaim and the resulting exchange of patent rights is the only way that aggressive competitors can coexist. Without patents, operating a technology business in a crowded market is akin to swimming in a shark tank with a nosebleed.
  5. Finally, patents allow sophisticated entrepreneurs and businesses to exercise offensive control over their markets . With well-planned patent filings, a company may be able to control its own destiny and greatly impact the future of its competitors. This process, called “Strategic Patenting,” looks at a company’s product plans as well as the product roadmaps and patent portfolios of key competitors. For examining the company’s own product plans, the initial questions asked in this process may include:
  • What are the key technologies needed to extend current products into the future?
  • How can we control these technologies and prevent others from hijacking our roadmap? and
  • Where can we get missing technologies needed to extend the product plan?

Yea…OK so if it’s going to happen anyway to bring siloed employees together, why not make the event free? After all, the product that the employees produce is given away free of charge. Classes in Africa are being done for free. Why is it then that this event is not free? Ah…,the cost of reality sinks in. The experiment that Charles is referring to is to see how many people (non-employees) will come out to so that interest in development can be gauged. This is an engagement metric if you will. You can extrapolate how many people are interested in your project by number of people attending compared to let’s say number of people posting, number of forum members, number of non employees who have commits, etc.

SAP, Salesforce, Oracle, and many companies have events like this. I imagine it’s important at this time for Charles and company to know how many nonemployee developers are out there, who they are, to network, see what products they are developing and how they can support that development, etc. if no one shows up, well it was an employee event anyway so why not make it free or extremely low cost. And why have tiers? Oh the people who can afford it can go and the people that cannot well stay home. Funny.

I’m sure we’re not all going to be yelling Bitconnect anytime soon. But the idea that you can give everything away for free is demonstrably invalidated by this very model. Charge for the cheap stuff but give away the good stuff for free.

I would really like to hear IOHK/Charles go on the record that they will never seek a patent for any software that uses the Cardano network and a public contract expressing such. IOHK is the for profit entity developing this after all. Shouldn’t be much of an issue since this is a statement he has made clear in the video, right?

Let’s create a product that is available by license whereby others can use and patent incremental improvements.

IOHK will have the most knowledge at the launch of the mainnet and full decentralization. IOHK is free to patent idea upon idea to build their patent defenses. Do you think other companies will not? If you don’t, you will be defenseless.

Any private company developing on Cardano will patent ideas. It happened to Linux.


So let me get this. Let’s build something completely free of patents, so that we have first mover advantage, and can patent ideas off of the idea we gave away for free. Interesting. IOHK wouldnt patent anything based on Charles statements in his video, right? Yea I call BS. IOHK will patent their creations and that’s where the money will be made. It’s a FOR PROFIT entity for God’s sake. How will IOHK defend against patent suits if they don’t have patents themselves? Yea…it will be an IBM of the Cardano network. Otherwise, every idea that is out there will have to be given away for free before someone patents it. If that’s the case then people will be deincentivized to create products because anyone can copy their work and reproduce it. Capital driven investment and development will be limited because people do not want to give away their creativity for free. Artists don’t even give away their best works for free, mostly. They sell it to survive, buy supply’s etc.

Sure some people will lay the groundwork for free. Some people will contribute significant amounts of effort because they have the time. But for the group of people still supporting themselves, a family, looking to make it big, etc., they will need patents. Call it antiquated but it’s not going anywhere anytime soon. Improvements will be made to reduce frivolous litigation and things of that sort. We still use trains in the US and not bullet trains. Cars are still being used except now the electrical motor is the focus. Its an incremental improvement. That’s all. No transporter, no worm hole, no bifrost.

Linux has been out for what 20 years? Patents still around. Patents will be around long after Cardano is in version 10. The thing is, most of us invested in Cardano. If the foundation held the patents could there be decentralization leveraging a model similar to Tesla.

This would protect the foundation from lawsuits if Cardano infringes on some other patent out there or that results in a development which is patented by a private company developing in Cardano which may disrupt the roadmap.

Are we all aware of how many patents are filed by companies working on open source software? This idea that it will be a free society is laughable. Open source software contributes to the large amount of software patents being filed. C’mon guys let’s just hop aboard the capital train. IOHK will be the Red Hat of the Cardano network.

ah i see, are you a lawyer?

in my opinion, emurgo is to google as iohk is to linux. google (open software era) has dominated for 20 years and before that was microsoft (open hardware era). the next 20 years is open data and open source. the legal construct that you speak of is about to get disrupted. it does not matter what the legal profession does, they cannot stop distributed software. napster is a better example and they had the last laugh.

if you have studied microsoft, bill gates said half jokingly, "Since when has the world of computer software design been about what people want? This is a simple question of evolution. The day is quickly coming when every knee will bow down to a silicon fist, and you will all beg your binary gods for mercy.” notice he did not say legal gods.


This is really not fair, IOHK has been researching avenues for secure cryptographic resolutions to well known problems in the world, if IOHK in the future is not selected as developer of Cardano the business absolutely should be able to take everything they have discovered during their work and patent whatever design they come up with through the work put in over the years that is acceptable outside of Cardano and within the framework of law.

Personally I am hoping that IOHK will be developing blockchain solutions for private business that are validated on the Cardano platform and are in some way patented to protect the software.

I suppose not, there is no reason that a company cannot work on open source protocols and engage in private business at the same time, what is wrong with the capital train anyway?

Comparing open source Linux to open source Cardano might not be the most valid point here. Yes, you can take Linux and run it on a machine for free, and the developers get nothing in return. Hooray for me! Boo for Linux devs! However, the decentralized movement is very different. You can’t simply take a decentralized network and copy/paste it. The entire purpose of decentralization is building a community that run and operate this software. Sure, the enterprise version of Cardano can be taken and used at will. Charles understands this, and he encourages it. Why? Because all of these enterprise solutions will live in a centralized/federated ecosystem. As soon as you want to move the value that you’ve created in an enterprise system to a decentralized one, guess what… You’ll need ADA to pay the costs of doing business in the decentralized world. Of which Charles’ company owns a large stake in. It’s as simple as that. You give away one portion of the software, and you make money on the other portion.

As for your issues with Africa… Blockchain could be a game-changer. Giving individuals the ability to send and receive funds quickly and easily, to store their funds safely, and to be able to track income/transaction history will all be HUGELY beneficial. Lending (with reliable metrics to measure likelihood of repayment) is where Africa transitions from linear growth to exponential growth. Once examples and models have been proven, we could see internet infrastructure get built out very quickly over the next 5-10 years. To use apps like Yoroi does not require much bandwidth at all. Satellites, cell towers, and mesh networks are all realistic options.

You expressed that you think attacking Africa is the wrong strategy and you’d like to target the developed world… I’d be interested to know what that looks like to you. After all, blockchain and cryptocurrencies are entirely about keeping a decentralized ledger that provides an agreed upon form of truth. This simply means “What information should we trust…” Simple as that. The developed world already trust banks. Go tell any individual that is depositing money at a bank that they shouldn’t hold their money there. They’ll laugh in your face and tell you that it’s the best option. Because of this, convincing someone to use crypto instead of a bank is going to be a ridiculous burden in the developed world. In many developing countries, this isn’t a problem. Cardano can offer many of the services that banks offer at a tiny fraction of the costs. Is it perfect? No. Is it better than what they currently have access to? Hell yes. Sure there are risks. People have to keep their private keys safe. But it at least allows them to save money. It allows them to track their income so that they can apply for loans to buy cars/homes/businesses. All of these things are extremely difficult currently. It just makes sense to build communities from the ground up around Cardano rather than trying to seamlessly transition the legacy system to a decentralized one.


Let’s go through this point by point so that I can address each point that you have brought up.

  1. Linux is not a not a valid comparison. You’re comparing apples and oranges. Setting up a desktop is comparable to setting up a wallet. Setting up a node/stake pool is more comparable to setting up a Linux server or cluster. They are reliant on the technical capability of the end user. I can set up one with ease, the second requiring more effort. Most users can set up a wallet; most users can download an ISO and set up a Linux box. Some users can set up a Linux server, some users can create a node/pool. Not every user will be able to contribute code or commit to Cardano. The same applies to commits to the Linux kernel.

I’m not sure what makes you think you can simply cut and paste Linux and youre ready to go. Is you last name Torvalds?

Moving funds or other transactions from an Enterprise version to the PUBLIC Cardano network. In terms of money, Enterprises generally do not let the public know about transactions involving spending on an acquisition, payroll, stock buybacks, supply chain, procurement, reimbursements, expenses, and just about everything else. Do you honestly believe that Enterprises will report to the public ledger before earnings announcements?

You know, you’ve mentioned Africa like everyone else. I’ll answer your questions but do me a favor. Answer mine. How do you plan to overcome all of the things I mentioned? I can answer your question about targeting the developed world in a couple of ways. The first can be addressed by the simple fact that the developed world has the capital and economy to support uptake and adoption. Let me give you a few examples in the form of questions. That way you can provide the answers and validate the source (you) to account for any bias in the response.

  1. Which 5 countries account for the most purchases of hardware wallets that are used for cryptocurrencies? Of the countries that you have named, how many are developed countries (first world)?

  2. Purchases reflect adoption to a degree. If cars are purchased in an economy, it can be argued with strength that automobiles have been adopted as a mode of transportation. The greater the number of purchases, the greater the adoption. With this general line of thinking, I have the following questions for you.

A. In which countries is BTC used the most?
B. In which countries is BTC purchased and traded the most?
C. In which countries is ETH used the most?
D. In which countries is ETH purchased and traded the most?

That is what developed country strategy looks like. Let me give you some examples. If cars were built and sent to Africa, how fast do you think adoption would be compared to an economy which was able to afford it? How fast would you think development of the Internet and computer industry would be if adoption was based on an Africa first strategy?

With regard to sending and receiving funds. This can be done currently with low fees on a mobile device. What is the compelling reason to switch to crypto? Money would still have to be purchased from an exchange, some exchanges require KYC, exchanges charge a fee to purchase BTC or one of the main cryptos, then a charge to an exchange to switch to ADA or something not directly listed on the exchange or if it lacks a fiat pair, then it has to be transferred to a computer, mobile device, or cold wallet. An Internet or wifi connection has to be available transact. How does this have an advantage over a dollar which can be pulled out of a pocket, has ZERO fees, stability, no requirement for an internet connection, hardware wallet, etc etc. As for loans…people can obtain micro loans right now. Let me guess, they will have to get a loan to get a ledger, computer and internet so that they can take out a loan for a business???

Cell towers, satellites, etc etc. OK Yoroi doesnt require a lot of bandwidth. Many places in Africa do not have internet connections. Yoroi doesn’t help with that does it? Satellites. OK sure, satellites are available. Do you know the cost to connect to a satellite? Let me guess…another micro loan to connect to a satellite so they can transact? The thing with cell providers is they provide the best service to the locations where they will make the most money. Let me guess, the entire country of Kenya versus New York City…the cell companies will pick Kenya. Sure Ok. Mind you, I said City not State.

As far as building out loan models…where do you think that adoption and model would be built out faster, Africa or hmmmm California? I would bet on California. Let’s go one step further…would it work better and faster in Africa or Wyoming? I’m betting on Wyoming.

As for go tell anyone who has money in the bank to store it in crypt and they’ll laugh in your face…thats rather funny to me because it is you and I here discussion crypto that it appears we both have invested in. I’m not laughing at you and I imagine that you’re not laughing at me. If so, both should be laughing at all of these other people here as well as the developers, Charles, Vitalik, Larimer, Sun, and the list goes on. I’m fairly certain that even Charles doesnt have his entire paycheck paid in Ada. Airlines dont accept Ada or BTC right now.

Cardano is better than a bank? Um no. If it was, everyone would place all of there money into it and it would be reflected in the 24 hour volume every biweekly, and monthly period when people get paid. Even you cant believe that. If you did, you would put your entire paycheck in it every week and transact from your wallet. If you say you do, you are either lying or stupid. The amount of fees you would pay just to take your money out doesnt justify it.

Cardano has some risks…sure but Cardano cannot match any of the services of any bank in the US right now. In fact, even in the next 2 years, Cardano will not have the services that can match the 4 branch bank down the street from my house. Cardano for one cannot return stolen funds which my bank can do. My bank can send me replacement ATM card for free. Cardano going to send me a replacement hardware wallet? Uh nope.

Will crypto be a game changer…sure. Anytime soon? No. In fact, not No, but Hell No. The thing is you have to be honest to yourself when answering these questions otherwise you make costly mistakes and regret your investment. The more important thing is to make sure you do not fall in love with a coin, period. It’s just a coin. Anything that is done on Cardano can be studied, modified, and applied in principle to another coin. Why do you think the concept of seeds are so common? POW?

You see the thing is it seems like you fell in love with an idea…and thats OK so long as you dont get lost in it. Try this. Take a pseudo hardware wallet (a USB), imagine it is your savings account. Take your phone, imagine it is a savings account or just a spending/checking account. Lastly take your ATM card. Once you have all of those, imagine trying to pay with each, starting in the order I mentioned them. You’ll get rejected with the USB, if you want to carry a computer with you as well for realism go ahead. With the phone, you’ll be able to spend with a current app like Apple Pay, Venmo, or banking app…but try Yoroi. You probably wont be able to. So now the compelling reason is why? It is a service that can already be provided by a scaled service. lastly try your atm card…you probably wont be rejected unless you have insufficient funds. Once this exercise is done, you’ll find that the existing services are quite capable and no one wants to carry around every red cent they own because they just might lose it. At that point reality should sink in. Crypto is good for Dapps…to pay online…but guess what…that can be done right now as well. The argument for begin to shrink. The only remaining thing is decentralization, anonymity, and having access to everything you have which I’ve illustrated time and again can be bad and have negative consequences due to the risk…and also because it is something most people just don’t want to do…well drug dealers, sanction circumventers, and some other use cases.

The next thing, imagine you’re usb is your main large wallet which you leave at home. You obviously wouldnt leave it in a bank safe deposit box because you dont trust banks right. Now using your Yoroi wallet you go out and want to make a purchase larger than what is in your phone wallet. You have to go home and make transfer. I do not. I transfer funds from my bank app, savings to checking. It’s that instant. If I decide not to purchase and want it in my savings again, I send it right back. No worries about sending it to the wrong account and not being able to get it back, and no charge. That’s not the case with Ada or other cryptos is it…except a few.

Please dont forget to answer the questions about Africa.

I am glad that we agree on that. It seemed like you were trying to make the argument in some earlier posts that Cardano was making a mistake by going the OS route. Maybe I misunderstood your statements?

I do not. My point was that people will be able to move funds/information from enterprise environments to a public/trustless one.

Your arguments are highly hypocritical. In other threads, you talk about how cryptocurrency adoption isn’t going to happen in the developed world, because we have banks that offer ATM/debit cards, 24 hour support and fraud protection. You suggest that these hurdles are too great for cryptocurrency to overcome. Now, you are making the counterargument that cryptocurrencies have no place in the developing wold, and we should attack the marketshare of large and established legacy institutions?

As a courtesy I will give a broad question to all of your answers… Developed countries own nearly all of the crypto in circulation. But what else would anyone expect? These are the nations that are the most productive. After all, that’s all that money is–a measure of productivity.

I’m going to emphasize “to some degree”… For tangible, manufactured goods, this is a much stronger argument. Cars have use cases and they increase productivity. By purchasing a car, one increases his/her access to potential income sources as well as goods/services. By purchasing BTC, what are the benefits in the developed world? Hmm… well we already have a litany of financial institutions that we can use for transacting value, saving it as well as lending it. So what is the real benefit of BTC to the developed world? It helps to eliminate currency counterfeiting via central banks. Can you name more? The problem is that most people in the developed world don’t see (or don’t have the ability to understand) that there is an inherent crack in our system that is only getting larger. This benefit of cryptocurrencies won’t be obvious to the masses until sh*t has already hit the fan.

So again, I will ask the same question… What does your strategy look like for trying to take marketshare in the developed world? It’s not about just getting people to own it crypto. It’s about building an ecosystem around it. People need to get paid in crypto. People need to spend with crypto. People need to save crypto. People need to invest with crypto.

There’s an immutable accounting ledger that is built into Cardano. This is a giant benefit over MPESA and the likes. I can now create a digital identity that allows me to have a verifiable income source. This is great for building a credit system. This is also great for governments, because it allows much easier and accurate accounting for tax purposes.

Okay… or one person could just pay another person for his/her labor in ADA. Then the laborer could use that ADA to buy goods at a store. This store owner would then pay his/her laborer with the ADA that was received for the goods sold. And so forth… It’s an ecosystem.

Define “fee” for me. I received $1 in 1990. I was going to use it to buy a bottle of Coke, but decided to hold it instead. Today I went to use it to buy that bottle of Coke… Guess what… That bottle is now $1.89. That’s a fee to me.

As for internet connection… offline hardware wallets are coming. Tangem is one example. Ledger Nano X using bluetooth is another. The options are only going to get better over the next two or three years.

Or they could just do the transaction offline with hardware wallets. Again, these solutions are coming. It’s like looking at the internet in 1998 and saying, “Well how am I going to play Xbox against people in Korea with such a slow connection?” If there is a demand for use cases, then the free market will deliver, and the most efficient solution will rise to the top. This industry is moving incredibly fast. Looking 5 or 10 years down the road and trying to solve those problems with today’s tools is a very naive mindset to have.

Cell providers provide the best services to locations where they are forced to because of competition. Ability to make money is what drives competitors to flood certain markets. The amount of money that can be spent on cell services is directly proportional to how much those services increase a population’s productivity. If Cardano can give people access to Dapps in these countries that allows them to be more productive, then they can use that additional capital to pay for better internet services. As demand builds, the infrastructure will get built out, and it will become cheaper for the masses. This same thing happened in the US, Europe, Japan and Australia. It will be no different in Africa.

People in California already have identity management, W2’s, previous years’ tax return documents, credit scores, etc… The system works for them. Not to mention that the entities controlling each of these items are regulated and come with guarantees. This creates trust. So until there is a proven model that is better than this, why would people change?

Most developing countries do not have any of this. If Cardano can offer all of these services, it changes the quality of living drastically in these areas. It offers an alternative that is leaps and bounds better than what they are currently using.

In order for crypto (of any kind) to be adopted, then it has to be socially accepted by the masses. As of now–It’s not. Hardly anyone I know owns crypto. Continuing the point further, the developed world has a model that works for most people. The developing world does not.

Literally not a sentence that I typed. I didn’t even suggest this. You might gain some value from using how to use the “quote” button. I enjoy having discussion, but don’t make sh*t up.

What I did say was that Cardano can offer solutions to those that don’t have access to legacy banking services in developing countries.

You literally just made the exact argument for why Cardano is better suited for the developing world rather than the developed one.


Most projects struggle to fork existing code from ETH and BTC. I agree that it is possible, but to have a cryptocurrency you need tech and a community. You can only fork one of those.

Tell the day laborer in Kenya to pay with his ATM card.

The entire last half of your post is honestly the exact argument for why Cardano is best suited for Africa and Asia that it is for any first world country. So which one is it? Cardano should compete with Wells Fargo, JP Morgan, Experian, Equifax, ADP, PayChex and all of the other financial services companies in the developed world, or they should go to Africa and Asia to build a parallel system in a decentralized manner?

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  1. Please re-read. Quotes should be around “Linux is not a valid comparison”. I was quoting you.

  2. “I do not. My point was that people will be able to move funds/information from enterprise environments to a public/trustless one.” - This can already be done. Enterprise funds do not work in this fashion. Not now and not never until MASSIVE legislation occurs…and this is not going to happen in your lifetime or mine. Keep dreaming.

  3. “Your arguments are highly hypocritical” - OK dont take my word for it. Here is the opinion of a well known BTC advocate. Time=46:00

  1. How I think crypto as a currency will play out. It will play out with the abomination Charles mentioned. JP Morgan and other banks will create crypto of their own that is used within the current system and replace swift as well as some other legacy systems. Alt Coin for the most part will be a niche with some exception. XRP, Maybe Stellar, maybe Dash, maybe Ada, and definitely BTC will still be around.

  2. “I can now create a digital identity that allows me to have a verifiable income source.“ - Sure. The problem with this is “I”. I can create. I can create many identities, many wallets, many methods whereby money is coming into my wallet non of which are verifiable unless the wallet owner giver up their identity. So much for limiting metadata.

  3. “Okay… or one person could just pay another person for his/her labor in ADA.“ OK so you see this is one problem with these type of discussions. BTC and the US dollar already address this. This is not a valid use case. Let me state to you a current fact right now in real world terms. I have arcade tokens that can be used at multiple arcades including Chuck E Cheese. These have greater acceptance than Ada right now in the US. Adoption must be huge for stability. Yea so a guy sells you a car or does labor only to know 10 minutes later his money is worth less.

  4. “Or they could just do the transaction offline with hardware wallets.” Show me one hardware (cold wallet) that does not require a internet connection to move funds. Really?

  5. Re: Cell Providers-“If Cardano…” Youve made my case. If. That’s all it is. If. If Cardano, If Ethereum, If Bitcoin. That won’t happen for the next 20 years. And that is not an “If”!

  6. As for go tell any one… please see the Andreas video. He makes the case for this developed and undeveloped. Even in undeveloped areas, you STILL need to address the numerous and not all concerns I have brought up. None of this “if they build a bunch of satellites - forgetting that satellites cost money and need a rocket, government approval and regulation of launching such a device.” Enough with the “ifs”. All of that takes a lot of money and labor. And a tsunami if crypto coins ain’t gonna solve that!

  7. Cardano is better than a bank. OK you didn’t say that. Here is what you typed. “Cardano can offer many of the services that banks offer at a tiny fraction of the costs.” for me, that means better. OK so name many of the services. I’ll give you one. Transferring value (perceived, and not widely accepted, used, or legal tender) from one location to another. Name 5 more? Customer support? Replacement cards?

  8. Cardano has some risks. Again…I am quoting you and did not place quotes. “You literally just made the exact argument for why Cardano is better suited for the developing world rather than the developed one.” Cardano has limits. I’ve stated these time and again. Last time someone said “in a rural area they can use a hardware wallet…” I replied something to the effect of “OK, so now they have to get an internet connection, radio transmitter, satellite dish, hardware wallet, electricity, software, a mobile device just to transact when they can just open up a wallet or purse and have an immediate and anonymous transaction through fiat.” So what is your compelling argument for someone in rural Africa who is unbanked to use crypto. Let me guess. “So they can have control of their money and store it all in one place” now tell them that they may need to update the wallet from time to time, update their computer, have an internet connection or mobile device, make sure they download an official wallet, don’t be succeptible to phishing or being hacked or they can lose everything don’t lose their seed or they can lose everything, place a seed in a secure place like a BANK safe deposit box in case their house burns down, etc, etc.” and they.ll respond with why not just put my money in the bank then. Case closed. Next. “Well what if they want to take all of their money on vacation?” OK I hear this one all the time. When have you or anyone you personally know taken every red cent they own on vacation? Oh wait honey we’re going on vacation…let me grab all of our savings, my 401k, your pension money, piggy bank money, everything of value, mortgage and trust deeds, let’s just take it all cause you never know.” Plane crashes on the way to vacation, parents pass, kids have nothing. No this is a dumb use case and if you don’t agree, then we’ll that shows you your smarts. Do not put all of your eggs in one basket. Similarly do not put all of your money and valuables in one crypto wallet.

  9. “Most projects struggle to fork existing code from ETH and BTC.” ETH classic…hey I think Charles was involved with this one. They got that out pretty damn fast! Oh wait…BTC, um OK…Dash, BTCSV, Bitcoin Cash, Bitcoin Gold, Bitcoin Diamond, seriously? The code is there and people take it and make a coin of their own. What’s the motivation…MONEY hey surprise! Guys, let’s split this gig and do our own coin. I don’t like this code is law thing and many of us agree. If you hop on board as an incentive, you’ll get 250000 coins. If it goes up you can sell it. Then buy back in and drive the price up and sell again. You’ll always know first about developments or if we’re not going to be able to pull it off completely. Guess what though? That only means you can cash out before everyone else! Yay…and you haven’t spent a dime to get it! You always come out on top! Isn’t that great?

  10. Day laborer in Kenya. They have been told. They like the message. They live the service.


You might want to reread my post. Nothing in it makes a use case for Cardano in Africa.

Its not about beating someone in a decentralized game. It’s about beating competition in the game period. The moment you begin to think you’re better than the competition is the moment you’ve lost.

As far as avoiding taxes, that’s really irrelevant to this topic.

If google wanted to beat or compete, I’m sure they would. They’ve likely created a gaming console I hear. Seems like they move anywhere they see an engineering opportunity and opportunity to make money. How much money is in the crypto space? How fast did the market grow? Let me think…Google only goes after money losing propositions. Um nope.

yes i’ve heard those arguments before. and you seem to love the idea. you would need to talk to emurgo. they are the private for-profit entity. but it is not iohk interest or position.

merkle, chaum, nakamoto… they are the torvalds in this analogy. microsoft has open sourced their linux patents. so ms has folded and will not pursue patents. google will follow suit.

there are 9 variables to a successful company. imitability is just one. china copies everything and makes it cheaper. and the chinese govt protects chinese companies in violation of global patent cases. cause they own the home game.

imo, the big picture is that middle men will be disintermediated. lawyers are middle men. that is why all the new buzz brand “STO” is them folding. it is enterprise in disguise playing word games for the noobs.

yes they can sling and parrot in fancy pants but they are struggling for relevance.

here is a message from charles.

like and subscribe to my new channel - cliff c2
cliff c on youtube has been deep sixed - note i will never ask for keys.

you can contact me on linkedin. dr. clifford k. choi, dc


You make no sense. Unintelligible. It reads like babble. Sorry I call it as I see it. Your explanation jumps around a bit much.

In the meantime let’s look at Internet use in Africa.

Looks like a great place to start a protocol that is internet dependent. Not. Maybe so 10% of the population can use it? Great. Oh wait. That 10%…some of them, wait a sizable number of them access from work and public hot spots! Oh yeah then need vpn due to the nature of the transactions…oh wait…VPN used mostly in South Africa by the rich/upper class (i.e., Banked). Too funny.

Let’s not forget about stability. It’s driving people to use VPN but…many people cannot afford it so they don’t use it/buy it.

Let’s not forget about censorship.


So much for vpn

Employment? Well you need money to buy crypto after all, right?



Takes some education to use crypto right?

Gotta love that stability


Africa, absolutely the best place to start. Low internet usage and penetration, population which uses older software and hardware, population that does not have the economic support to buy the latest tech such as hardware wallets, economies that do not support a robust cyber crimes law enforcement agency, lowest purchasing power of crypto currencies of all continents, and the list goes on. This is the best place to start. Not. While you’re at it, how about selling luxury liners in Botswana.

Do I think there are better places to start. YES!

Where might you consider? How about places where vpn is used relative to the capacity to buy hardware and updated software, along with a well developed economy, and cyber crimes enforcement units as well as a system based on rule of law. Here’s a good starting list that has diversity in cultures and interpretation of law so there is no western culture bias.


sorry let me clarify. we are not going to seek patents.

it’s american english with a few shibboleths.

I imagine at some point you will have to. It’s invitable. If you’re certain about that, how about having the legal counsels for both IOHK and Emurgo sign a document stating such and if they do seek a patent, I receive full rights and royalties for any such patents. A mature company will need to seek patents to survive. It’s just a fact of life and business.

maybe, but i don’t think they will sign anything with you. sorry pal.


Patents and blockchain (or anything open source) do not mix. The patent bubble will pop soon enough, decentralization renders patents worthless.

Blockchain relies on (developer) community building. No developer worth their salt is going to integrate any patented technology into whatever they’re working on because it adds uncertainty and annoyance (not to mention forcing you to work for free on someone else’s project). This is one of the reasons I stopped working on implementing Algorand. Silvio Micali completely f*cked himself by patenting the technology, and now it’s worthless to me - complete garbage - despite being a groundbreaking work in mathematics. Algorand will be a great case study, check back in 5 years to study their failure as a case in point of why it’s utterly stupid to use use patents in blockchain projects.


Michael94588, cliffLeader, et alia: Thanks for keeping it real.

Nothing you already don’t know, but imo, there’s much in each of your ‘positions’ that’s sound. Please indulge my curiosity and write a few sentences conveying what you do not want Cardano to be in say, five years.

Someone might want to tell these guys to get out of business.

Someone might want to tell all of these people to stop attempting to patent blockchain ideas.


Someone tell Workday to stop their patent efforts!


Some tell Confia the same thing!


While we’re at it let’s ask Verizon as well!


IBM?? No worries…just a small company, right? Maybe its just a stellar thing.




JP Morgan anyone?




Someone please tell the Chinese that patenting blockchain technology is useless!

I’m not going to get into EVERY OTHER COUNTRY where registrants are patenting technology.

Yea… I guess you’re right. These dinosaurs are just wasting their time building a patent portfolio so that they have a defense in litigation, can enforce their discoveries, build and patent off of the MIT license that Cardano is using for licensing to make incremental improvements that they can then patent…yea I guess that’s just dumb because as you say the patent bubble will blow up. Not. That is a very simplistic and idealistic way to look at life. Even when a bubble, as you call it, pops, the structures are still in place. Housing and mortgage bubble popped…banks are still there. In fact that bubble has popped several times…but guess what, the institutions are still there. Laughable.

Likely scenario, you guys build something great but it has a patented technology or method and guess what, you have to remove the feature or pay a licensing fee. And then guess what, you cant open source that feature because you become liable for each person that uses that tech or method and its not financially viable. Or the more likely course is that you will be restricted from using this your open source code. So you end up removing the feature…

As far as Algorand…Seems like Charles thinks Algorand is competition.

Doesn’t matter what successful VCs say. Not. After all they only invest in successful projects like Google, Amazon, WeChat, Alibaba, YouTube, and all those other nothing projects that turn into Big Ass companies…Nah thats nothing. I disagree.

These capitalists just dont know what’s up. Yeah right.