Require SPO Lists to be randomly shuffled

Staking & Delegation Operate a Stake Pool
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Edit 2 (Dec 2, 2021): After actually reading the IOHK paper, it appears the ranking method used by adapools.org may be an implementation of the game theory described therein. That, to us, satisfies the “why” regarding the adapools.org implementation of its ranking system. Also of note: The powers that be may (at some point in the future) adjust parameters such that multi-pools and large pools will be forced to shed delegators. If/when that happens, smaller pools (and especially bare metal single pools like us) may benefit. We can certainly continue to operate until then.

Currently, adapools.org is integrated into Yoroi. Many delegators see its rankings and simply pick from those at the top without bothering to research further. The current ranking is essentially static, so other SPOs (especially smaller ones) get little to no visibility.

I reached out to adapools.org as a single SPO and requested/suggested they simply randomly shuffle the initial SPO list. That way, all SPOs could receive fair visibility. I was told “no”. They are fine with the current arrangement and will not be changing it. We are Tier 3 supporters of adapools.org and like and utilize their offerings. They are in no way “bad”, so let me be clear they are not villains here. It’s simply a business decision to not randomly shuffle the SPO list. Perhaps they receive a benefit from those highly ranked pools? I do not know.

Anyway, adatools.io DOES randomly shuffle their SPO list. Go check it out for yourselves. So, it can be done. HOWEVER, adatools.io is not integrated into Yoroi. Adapools.org, via that direct integration, effectively has a monopoly and huge influence regarding which pools are receiving exposure to delegators - especially those important new delegators.

Perhaps there was a reason for Emurgo to go along with the scheme. I do not know. I do know there is a pressing need for the current arrangement to change or end. However, we tried and were unsuccessful as just one SPO voice.

I therefore call upon all SPOs, delegators, and others to make your voices heard. The SPO behind adapools.org is Cardanians (CRDN1), a multi-stake pool operator. Please comment below and/or contact them directly via the communication channels posted on their website:

Cardanians.io

or Emurgo’s website:

Emurgo.io

Make your voices heard. Together, perhaps we can make this decentralization effort happen.

Cardano is the Way!

Edit:

Tell them who you are (SPO, delegator, etc.) and what you want (Randomly shuffle the SPO list). Here is a copy/paste:

I am a SPO. I agree the SPO list within Yoroi should be randomly shuffled. Please make it happen.

I am a delegator. I agree the SPO list within Yoroi should be randomly shuffled. Please make it happen.

No action = no results

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Unfortunately, both Emurgo (Yoroi) and adapools.org have made it pretty clear that they don’t care!

Our voices won’t be heard.

Only solution might be to get together, build and use/promote a much better product that will make Yoroi/adapools obsolete.

As long as everyone keep using Yoroi/Adapools nothing will change!

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I have no interest in usign adapools.org if this is the case.

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I think people would ALWAYS want to rank on SOMETHING. So we need to give delegators ways in which they can rank pools based on their preferences. Adapools has decided to rank on roa, size and some other parameters that place the biggest pools on top. That is their choice imo. We can try to change their minds, or we can come up with other ways.

That is why the xSPO alliance but also other alliances like MDP and CSPO have created their own list of member pools within those alliances. If a delegator likes the idea of the xSPO alliance (supporting decentralization and small pools) or the MDP alliance (support mission driven pools), they can simply go to Community Portfolios - Cardano Stake-Pool Portfolios | adafolio or
Alliances | Cardano Staking and pick their favorite pool within their favorite group/alliance.

The adafolio groups can also be used with pooltool.io like shown below:

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Ranking is fine, using it by default with your own custom made algorithm is what many are against.

Yoroi could have by default a random placement and delegators decide how they want to filter!

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Would you rather have Daedalus ranking? :joy::joy:

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Are there people still using Daedalus? :joy:

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Yeah that would be good I think. Yoroi is now using just what adapools is using…
Maybe yoroi can change something in the future. Or at least add the same possibility as pooltool is offering (to prefilter based on adafolio groups)

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An “easy” solution might be for Emurgo to use its own random shuffle sort by default which then links to the SPO profile on the site preferred by the SPO.

The SPO could designate its preferred profile URL (adapools.org, adatools.io, or any other URL) within its json file. Such a solution would also effectively end decentralization of where delegators get their first impression information and increase competition between the providers to produce a better experience. Currently, adapools.org effectively has no competition (via Yoroi) from a new delegator perspective. Adapools.org is often the single source upon which they make their delegation decision.

We hope this awareness effort encourages discussion, solutions, and meaningful action.

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Don’t expect from Emurgo (Yoroi) to do any steps towards that or anyone else.

Only way forward is for SPOs to get together and create a wallet better than Yoroi. A wallet which will be everyone’s first choice.

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As an operator with a very small amount of ADA, I think it’s over for ppl like me. We enter too late in the network. I am really thinkig of stopping this activity. It was fun, and I was not expecting mining blocks on blocks but at least 1 block in 2-3 months…
Decentralized my ass. I am a bit bitter and sad. Maybe, I did not do all I could to get delegators but it should not working only for rich ppl.
The community is great and need to be united.

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This is a long standing conversation in one form or another of how unfair it is towards small pool operators. I have myself argued along similar lines .

The simple fact that the optimal number of pools is set to 500 in the parameters of the blockchain there will be always those that do not make part of the top 500 - either from being late, not enough marketing, not enough community, not enough stake … and they will be unhappy

A problem is that all the SPO are essentially providing the same service to delegators which automatically gets worse (economically) the smaller the pool is as the consistency of blocks gets smaller. So very large early adopters / network effects

The line of thinking could be what better service can be provided to differentiate the SPO … e.g. provide an app out of which the user gets a benefit by having his/her ada locked up and in exchange the SPO gets that ada staked with the pool. win / win. The community benefits with SPOs building apps and the delegators wins from getting a service.

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Yes, there are a forest of issues.

However, we are hopeful the community will help with just this one tree.

Please also contact Emergo and Adapools.org via the social media links provided on their websites (links in first post, above) and make your voices heard.

Tell them who you are (SPO, delegator, etc.) and what you want (Random shuffle the SPO list). Here is a copy/paste:

I am a SPO. I agree the SPO list within Yoroi should be randomly shuffled. Please make it happen.

I am a delegator. I agree the SPO list within Yoroi should be randomly shuffled. Please make it happen.

No action = no results

Cardano is the way!

1 Like
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I also have as small pool (40k) with no visiblity, but i think shullfeling is also not a solution. That would encourage people to split their skate and create as many pools as possible to increase the possibility to get picked.

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Hi all,

I have been here since epoch 216, 50k pledge, 0 block.
I dont want to do marketing and I first thought that the idea was not marketing needed.
I tried to be usefull for the community but I can’t dedicate full time to it.
I only have faith and love :wink:

I want to be a SPO because first, I can, I know how to run a server, linux, bash etc… and also because I want to gain more than just delegating to a pool.

Small pools can play a big part in keeping the network decentralized.

For the small pools, I believe the only solution is pool of pools
Same way as mining bitcoin and being part of a pool of miners.

I’m not a network specialist, neither a professional developper, but I feel that a smart contract might be able to do the job.
Are there any developpers here that are able to comment of this idea?

Let me know your thoughts guyz :wink:

Love,

stef [ACID]

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lgbtqstakepool, thank you for the feedback. After researching a bit more, I found evidence to support your suggestion that the solution would be to instead create a wallet wherein the random shuffle has been implemented.

Hopefully, if adapools.org does not change, then perhaps Adatools.io (or other) will answer the call and produce a wallet that randomly shuffles the SPO list. I am confident other small SPOs would get behind it and promote it on their websites and social media channels.

Here is a video for those interested. The ending is most relevant:

Desirability - SPO ranking within wallets

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While I’m not closed to the idea of making a wallet, it would be a pretty big task and not much “reward”. Yoroi is a commercial partner of Cardano so they’re getting paid directly. ADALite is basically a SPO farm so they’re all set for funding. Other than that, there’s no real way to get funding to pay for the servers on a long term base. Cardano hit 500,000 transactions in the last 24 hours and we’re not even at a real world capacity usage.

At the moment most of my pools (AOAUS) rewards is going into running ADATools.io. As in, if I get to the point of not having enough delegations to get consistent rewards, then ADATools.io would shut down soon after that.

I’ll definitely keep it in mind though and see if I could come up with a way to monetise it. I’ll do some research to see what it would take to make a lite wallet and what difficulties I would encounter.

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The desired level of decentralisation is given by the k parameter, which currently sits at k=500. By design it is therefore expected/wanted that all stake will eventually converge in 500 saturated pools.

This is achieved my making non-saturated pools less attractive to the delegator due to higher “cost per block”. A 1.1m pool currently makes 1 block per epoch on average. With a 0% margin, that block costs the delegator 340 fix or > 30% of his/her rewards.

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The actual block distribution over a longer period (e.g. 73 epochs or a year) follows the Bernoulli distribution, which (for a 1m pool) predicts a 40% chance of not making a block in any given epoch. The total number of 73 blocks will therefore occur in the other 60% of epochs, which lowers the cost per block (i.e. two or more blocks also cost 340 in such an epoch)

Still, the cost to the delegator is significant for smaller pools. They not only need to have good marketing, they need marketing good enough to compensate for the loss that the delegator would otherwise not have.

A viable solution to the problem is IMHO to lower the cost per block by giving a portion of the pool rewards back to the delegator. For example not charging 340 ADA, but effectively charging much less - this idea is illustrated here. It is also a viable solution because nobody actually needs 6 x 340 x $2 => $4080 per month to run two/three simple servers.

Ideally, this would be handled by a smart contract such that the effective cost per block becomes part of normal network payout. With Astor, all pool rewards minus 40 ADA get locked by such a smart contract, which delegators can then collect by swapping Astor tokens they receive every six epochs. This effectively removes the difference between owner and delegator reward.

When resource requirements go up, Astor cost may go up too. It’s not charity, it’s non-profit for the benefit of many.

What do you think, should I open this up, so that other pools can lock a portion of their pools rewards in the contract as as well? It could be a viable path to follow for many small pools.

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Hi tomdx,

The concept you’ve built is really interesting, clever and so simple, delegators earning a token which they can send back to receive ADAs using a smart contract.

I believe many SPOs would be willing to offer a part of the fixed fee to delegators in exchange of their delegations, at least I do.

I’d love to set it up on my pool!
I know how to create tokens, but I dont know how to setup a smart contract.

I think you should open it up yes! :wink:

Is there any document/github you can point me to so I can learn more about it?

Thanks a lot for you reply!

stef

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@stiiiif Sure, we can set it up for you. Lets take this offline for now and when its all done we can post the onboarding procedure here.