What are your skeptism/concerns on Cardano?

No, i m not saying that users are stupid to vote! i n no one to state such things nor i believe i have all the answers or all my votes would be correct

What i m trying to say is education, we must focus in educate all the people including myself on Cardano, that when times of voting comes will be more of us that are informed than the non informed people!
to say it flat we must have in our ecosystem the amount of stupid voter < than the people with votes that are actually good for the system

Also i would never say that any vote different from mine is stupid!! i assume will be a lot of people against my point of view, i m just saying that would be very nice if all the participant knows how much its mutter!

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Ok, my “anti-Trump sentiment” in the other post was caused by the fact that I find his photos funny and it was “the hot-topic” :slight_smile: I understand that it maybe was not the best possible comparison to state my point and apologise to anyone sensitive enough to be touched by that.

In other topics I have also used photos of Hillary, and I am actually Russian, so I couldn’t care less about American presidents, or Russian presidents for that matter, or any other presidents or politicians, they are aaaaaaaall equal in my incompetent view.

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Perfect equality of indifference for all of them in my head. Perfect peace…

Rick, I am really sorry if you read the expressed concern as “users are too stupid”. It is not the case. In the same way you should not read concerns about dishonest nodes as “pool operators are slimy bastards”. The only thing we are discussing here regarding this concern is that system makes technically possible for a maliciously incentivised actor to create a proposal that would play on human-factors, that’s it. Those factors might as well be: hype, greed, naivety, stupidity, arrogance, impatience. I am as well concerned about the possibility of all the arrogant developers (myself included) to vote for some stupid thing without taking in consideration all the non-technical users. This IS a part of the problem. In no way I meant to mean “stupid” as “non-developers” or “non-engineers” - “stupid” means anything that makes system worse for users in the long term, and a stupid vote may be done by academics as well as by anyone else.

This is just a complex question of right incentives and timings, and again, for the third time I point out explicitly - that this is just my personal biased concern. It was stated as such in the original comment. It was re-stated as such in the additional comment. And I have pointed out that this is the question of making the system AS less susceptible to a human error, as possible.

The worst thing we can do at this point, is to get defensive at assumption that humans (again, myself included) may be irrational and do suboptimal stuff. I am AS concerned about me over-hyping on a feature and voting for something stupid, as about anyone else.

I really hope you did read the rest of this comment, because my main point is that we gotta be ready to discuss unpleasant stuff. Some people happen to be bad, and some people happen to be stupid, and if it was enough to just have faith in the crowd - we could just as well not bother with the whole secure blockchain stuff then.

UPD:

This is a call for EVERYONE.

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I, for one, am looking forward to this liquid democracy. Crypto is a perfect sandbox to test it out.

Democracy is a great system as long as it works with institutions in place to defend its principles. In liquid democracy we would have to have those in place too so we don’t get carried away next time some crypto-Jesus comes along and wants us to follow him away from our principles.

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LOL, democracy – this network is doomed. The first vote will be a coin burn proposal, that will be successful and will be followed by more coin burn proposals until there are no coins left.

“The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.” - Winston Churchill

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99% agreed
The other 1% is about institutions, if we truly care and we make effort to support liquid democracy there is no need of any institution

And this is exactly what is discussed in this thread: Introduction to the paper ‘A Treasury System for Cryptocurrencies’

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Ruslan, I always read the entirety of your posts, you are both brilliant and a prolific writer.

The voters are already voting on Cardano, they are just not using a block chain to do it. And the voters have not yet voted for a coin burn, so I have no idea why people are worried about that but it’s OK.

Users and voters of Cardano have already provided their feedback, and Cardano has responded, via this forum right here, and social media such as twitter.

For example - I do not recall paper wallets being high priority or even on the roadmap, or the Ledger Nano being high priority on the original road maps for Byron release. But based on user feedback (defacto voting) Cardano / IOHK bumped up the timeline and implemented the paper wallets in 1.2 Charles’ tweet. and will have Ledger by 1.4. This is just an example that voting is already taking place, just not formally.

If the voters do want a coin burn and it goes to a vote and wins, oh well, I have to live with it even though I think a coin burn is stupid. I would rather have an imperfect democracy where voters are allowed to make mistakes than a dictatorship where the users and voters walk away and take their money some where else.

In my job I train the users on how analyze and make decisions using a set of software tools, and all too often I hear the users say effectively ‘why was the software made that way?’ and I hear the developers say ‘why are they not using that feature?’ and I am the monkey in the middle. It’s actually very comical sometimes but I find a way to bridge the gap between user expectations and the developers’ products. Now there are user feedback loops in place (not voting, but similar), but development is way too slow to respond to users fast paced needs and demands.

To get back on topic - My main criticism of Cardano is that they have advertised that features will be delivered on a certain date and then failed to deliver on that ESTIMATED DELIVERY DATE for functionality. On the positive side of that criticism, Charles already adapted to this shortcoming by publishing that IOHK and Cardano are getting better at understanding their own capabilities

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Projects takes time and countless details that in theory when studied couldn´t be predicted nor it behave at it should … Science work that way, there is also strategy and planning for example

To simplify, what do you prefer right now, 1 - Sidechains working and running or 2 - a strong marketing campaign ?

That is a bad analogy, the two options you presented have nothing to do with each other and both can be executed at the same time by different organizations.

Here are some examples of what users should be voting on:
Apple or Andriod light client development first?
Amazon or Ebay Caradno interface first? (eventually it will be both)
Should Cardano use a debit card or smart phone to store mobile private keys?
Grocery store payments or Utility Bill payment system development first?
Coin burn or no coin burn?
Create new coins that did not exist?
IOHK or Nintendo?
Porsche or Lambo?

Here are some examples that voters should not vote on:
Edit: Based on below conversation - should be delegated by the voters to an organization.
Engineering details.
Implementation details.
Haskell or C++ ?
IELE or KEVM?
Plutus or Solidity?
Security or Speed of transaction?
TCP/IP or RINA?

You see what I mean. Hope this helps clarify.

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This is my point, strategically you can not work the marketing until you have something in your platform ( sidechains and other stuff ) to insure a true scalability with infrastructure that actually could support this massive quantity of users that come eventually from the marketing campaign …

If you do a campaign first will lead to massive use of the network ( in infancy stage ) leading to deception in user experience would eventually lead to end of the system!

In voting, people would love to hear about cardano everywhere, me too just not yet!
IOHK is doing it fine, just let them work

All those need infrastructure that could support them to be able to be discussed

Agreed on that, yet you are becoming a dictator :wink: my friend …
Its about caring and knowing that even if we consider ourselves experts in something the truth we are not!
IOHK created Cardano and its their right to build it as they see fit!

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No that is not dictatorship, that is delegation by the voters. The implementation and engineering is delegated. The voters already had their vote (in this example) by voting on who gets to do the engineering, IOHK or Nintendo?

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I was joking

I know nintendo here is just an example
For me, for now always would be IOHK, as they know they little things but most important as they use mathematically proven methods, it would work for me …
But everybody would really! understand the whys of things, why haskell, why RINA why treasury … ?
this subject is very tricky

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For me the Jedi´s council thing would be the best

We would have those people that from their infancy learning how to be fair, how to help the weak how to master life and intellectually prepared to make decisions…
:joy::joy:

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I love that :joy::joy::joy: Can I vote for Ruslan to be on the Jedi council?

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Of course, Obi one ( subjected to voting lol ) is reserved for him :wink: … i guessed yoda to charles :joy:

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:joy::joy: I thought Charles would be Obi Wan because he is always fighting the battles, and Yoda would be Dr. Aggelos Kiayias because he is the true Master Jedi behind the scenes training the Jedi’s

Wow did we digress, but it was worth it. :+1:

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Yeah :ok_hand:

Totally :slight_smile:

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" Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch " - Ben Franklin

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Fantastic post Christer! My thoughts and concerns - both negative and positive almost ‘as is’.
Very early adopter but because of personal reasons (hard to live with the guilt though) sadly, time is not on my side so I have migrated most of my holdings to another project which will hopefully bear fruit a little more quickly for my family. However I wish all of those within the Cardano forum good health (and prosperity). There is no other group…on any other project!..who are as moralistic, knowledgeable and…God help us…not Lambo drivers. I will miss the posts from all of those I have read since the birth of this forum. Good luck guys.

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So, from the responses in this thread the main concerns appear to be the following:

  1. The prospect of end users voting on monetary policy and technical choices to generally detrimental outcome for the platform
  2. Pace of development relative to expectations or at least relative to projected timeframe in the roadmap
  3. Somewhat centralized control over protocol and software development

Did I miss anything?

I would like to add one more that is not really for Cardano alone, this is for all the Blockchains and platforms out there.

There’s no clear articulation of use cases beyond challenging the incumbents, i.e. the money transfer and payment systems. Even this use case is a very ambitious target. I am not sure there are use cases that are “waiting” for Blockchain projects.

Perhaps the concern I shared is an expression of my lack of knowledge in this regard.

Now another opinion I am about share has skepticism all over it, but this I genuinely wonder. Bitcoin and Ethereum are the poster figures of success in this area; however, the only value we see for these so far is in the speculative markets. That’s why they are so volatile relative to what we know as money at present. Who on Main Street “needs” them in order to serve a purpose?

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