Who is an expert? (treasuries)

treasury

#1

Hi everyone,
with the Whiteboard Video from Bingsheng Zhang and the first published paper we have some facts about the Treasury-System now.
But I still don’t understand how experts are defined. Is everyone free to call themselves experts?
How can we avoid that Crypto-Youtubers can call them experts and using their influence without a deep understanding?
I realize that voters can delegate for each proposal to a different expert but can these experts introduce themselves to the community as if they were interviewing for a job and prove their skills?
Will there be quality standards here?

Just a few questions… maybe I have not yet understood the paper sufficiently


#2

Yes, I want it to be like in the real life, where a tv-personality with no actual experience or knowledge on any topic would never even have a chance to be considered an expert and would never be given any real decisive power… oh wait…

image

JK! :rofl:

I’m afraid there’s no possible algorithmic solution that could provably decide if a “CryptoNickelodeon” from YouTube have any real understanding and deep knowledge about some topics :slightly_smiling_face: What if he actually does? :man_shrugging: What if he actually did put thousands of hours into studying a narrow topic, while making “Biconek” videos in his free time. It sounds funny for everyone, but what I mean is that any system that would prevent those people from having a chance to be elected would be fascistic in nature.

The liquid democracy means exactly this: if you have at least one ADA - then you have a right to put your vote on any option you want, or to delegate it to anyone you want. What if some people feel safe and comfortable only by delegating to those YouTubers? It’s their right :fist: )

I think we will have this situation when a lot of tabloid-like people get a lot of attention and votes just by sheer popularity. And I think we shall be trying to keep the whole thing from failing by educating people further, and by showing them how all these things are much harder than it might seem, and by making rigour and academics trendy with the further help from Charles )

From my understanding - no much other possible solutions. Maybe keep expert-incentives modest, so only actually interested people would participate. Maybe try to force all expert-wannabes to “prove the knowledge” by writing an extensive “expert application proposal” where he needs to explain why he thinks he’s an expert on this particular issue. Of course those applications could only maybe be reviewed and “graded” by the public but might help to show incompetence.

No real possible solution, imo, that would actually allow to ban someone from participation. But that’s ok, cuz that’s what freedom means :slightly_smiling_face: If you want freedom of speech - you have to put up with moronic writing, and if you want freedom of choice - you have to put up with incompetent voting.


#3

complex topic - thank you for your answer!

I would like that very much. Like a special area in the voting system in which experts can introduce themselves and their specialist skills


#4

I think such feature is even out of a question. Total must.


#5

The thing is, i never believed in democracy “as we know it and live it” i tend to precise the democracy that we are currently experiencing in the world!
and for me it was more something idealistic of humans, in the sense, the idea of everyone has equal right to vote is deeply wrong because i believe this “democracy” it what caused somehow the situation that we are in now ( Trump, Brexit, Italy … )
we can not suppose that we are all highly motivated to achieve the positive growth of society nor understanding that we all are equals and we would make efforts to choose wisely

This video explains more precisely what i mean
Why Socrates hated Democracy ( 4:21m): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLJBzhcSWTk&t=128s

Now, Liquid democracy is the innovation in modern politics that i really wished to have and i m amazingly excited about, for the problem of expert thing, we need just 3 things
Patience - EDUCATION ( the most important one ) - Time.
once we know that we have in hand something as liquid democracy and the concept well understood, i really believe is the model that could we use in society in the real life…

So the expert thing eventually will be resolved, what i need is the code/ idea and the concept works!!!
Just to go live for me will be huge!!
ps: i do not like politics!


#6

That’s why we will-have PoS-version of the liquid democracy :slight_smile: And we can assume that whales with millions of coins are highly motivated to achieve positive growth of the system that makes those coins valuable )


#7

I would add: we then need some time for people to learn that both direct and liquid democracy does not automatically mean that you are always right (win the poll), no matter if you vote yourself or delegate it to that expert who represents your opinion as one of many opinions.

And as you mentioned Italy (A situation I know directly as a citizen)
You may know that Italy has a very high and still growing GDP dept of 132% (in total numbers 2,556,574 million dollars) https://countryeconomy.com/national-debt/italy

Nonetheless the winners of the polls was
a.) 5-Stelle: They promised their voters a basic income. They won in the South because there is a very high unemployment rate and not that much motivation to work (but thats a personal opinion)
b.) Lega (nord): They promised their voters a flat tax of 15% They won in the North.
Both points will have an estimated cost of 250,000 million dollars and so will increase the debt by +10% per year.
At the moment nobody knows how they will achieve this. In todays newspapers we read that their plan is to ask the other members of European Union for a debt cancellation.

The big question now is not if this request will be considered seriously (definitively not) but: will this be different when people can delegate their vote to so called experts instead of so called politicians and parties?
Charles talked about the pro’s of delegated voting power in a video and then brought up an example on Donald Trump. (https://youtu.be/2DFYBb_zOpc?t=16m45s)
Maybe worth to scroll back 3 minutes and listen the entire topic.


#8

oh and if there is anyone who has an (expert) idea to solve that little Italian problem: https://twitter.com/fwred/status/996647604799852544

Please let us know alternatives to the proposed but disastreous #exitaly
@Charles could you please increase developement speed? Looks like Italy is driving fast against the next massive wall and people fear to loose their Euro’s…


#9

Exactly!
This is why Cardano as a project excites me so much!
I have faith!


#10

Totally agreed
Thanks for the info … Anything relying to people is subjected to be manipulated, humans we act irresponsibly in many cases, politics of today does not work!!!
Its simple as that, i dont think we are prepared as society to shift to a new model right now, also this new model will be implemented by the same political people …

Cardano may offer a truly valid new way, first to be tested digitally then once we discover all the benefits and flaws, i think more serious talks must be held to try at least an implementation in real society in small scale with clear vision to go global!


#11

If a country were to implement a liquid democracy would there no longer be a president / prime minister ?


#12

Delegative democracy, also known as liquid democracy, is a form of democracy whereby an electorate has the option of vesting voting power in delegates rather than voting directly themselves.

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delegative_democracy

That’s it. It’s just a way to do voting, nothing more.


#13

Its possible even it seem no
it all depends of the system used and how engaged are the people with the system …

If each individual in a community does what it best for the community to prosper, wouldnt be necessary the existence of a president or prime minister to impose ( or sell ) his criteria of any mutter,
as all aspect of management of a country will be subjected to voting and deciding by the community in the system, now, one thing is very important, we must ask ourselves some questions

Does the community have enough knowledge to decide correctly as individuals ? this community, is educated enough to understand the relevant and imprtant his/her vote is?, do they care ?..
In my opinion people are tired and deeply skeptical about our days politics so they dont care! if we could solve that, then we can hope one day we can achieve real Democracy! and of course, then a minister or president would not be necessary


#14

It sounds good but I think it would be a bit complicated for the avg Joe American to wrap their head around. I would be happy if we simply had campaign finance reform such that our politicians are not beholden to wealthy special interests. That would not be too difficult to accomplish. The U.S. is capitalist, not a democracy.


#15

While it was a joke… Just to be fair here since many would actually say that in real life… To be fair to Trump, he isn’t a TV-personality, and he has much more experience than any of the recent presidents or the candidates there was to choose form. Political experience is NOT experience in anything going on in real life of real people.

You want a person who has spend their entire life in Washington?

or a Person who has owned and started multiple and many businesses, and obtained a huge amount of wealth in doing so. Being successful in real life, where you are competing with real people… Not just how to appease your voters.

Everyone can sit around and laugh at him, but this person has probably done more in his life, and for the economy, than the entirety of everyone on this forum combined.

I am not saying Trump is the perfect candidate, but if you compare him with the likes of Obama, Hillary, Bush, Sanders, none of these people have done anything of significance in their lives.

Trumps greatest achievement in life is not going to be becoming President, which it would for all of these other people - and I would like to see much more of that.

Real people, having done real things, in real life. That are not a career politician, but is there because they love the country, and they want it to do well.

The logic of a career politician is troublesome… This is a huge moral hazzard.,

Of course I am not even for Government solving problems so this is irrelevant to me, but it is just funny to me the shit that Trump gets when it is really uncalled for using any logic in that process. I understand if you are a emotional leftist, that have no understanding of anything but apart from that, he should be given credit where credit is due.


#16

That you used a picture of Trump (JK!) for this example and not a picture of Obama (JK!) is a really good example of the diversity of opinion, not expertise -> on the subject of who you think could be considered an expert. 50% of the people might think one person is an expert an the other is not, and the other 50% think vice versa.


#17

I believe as Cardano moves forward and real issue’s are brought to the stake holders for vote, then those that claim to be an “expert” on a subject that is up for vote will be scrutinized by those of us that care about the treasury funds being utilized responsibly, lets use an example here of what we might be asked to release treasury funds for:
Let us say the treasury is holding 200M dollars and is expected to double the amount in as little as 3 years, a proposal is submitted for reconstruction of a community in Haiti that was destroyed by a tsunami, 50M dollars is proposed for the effort (just a quarter of the treasury fund) the proposal is made by a person that is personally affected by the Tsunami but has no experience in the logistic’s of operating such a task.

Now let’s be personally involved: if I decided the “project owner” made a proposal I wanted to support than I might label myself as an expert on the issue, I would be personally involved and would reach out to charities that have experience in such an endeavor and I would begin to assist in the organizing of the reconstruction effort, i would become familiar with the cost’s of the project and would be able to identify where the money would be spent, as an “expert” I would ask for voting power to push through the proposal to begin the reconstruction, I would be very familiar with the project and understand it, knowing the “project owner” has no experience in such an effort as an “expert” I would want to be sure the funds were used correctly if the proposal was voted through, if the pertinent details were not in place to insure the funds would be used correctly then as an “expert” on the subject I would be inclined to vote no on the proposal.

This is kind of how I see it, if someone is going to be involved as an “expert” than they should truly be involved and understand how the funds will be disbursed.

And yes a youtube personality could definitely claim to be an “expert” and it will be up to us as the community to read through “personality” to come to a decision that will not shine a negative light on Cardano while disbursing funds from the treasury.

@Chris28 I also think that we can set some quality standards now before any voting begins, I would hate to see restrictive standards, but if the community can develop some professional guidelines I think the CF would be supportive to some extent, maybe this is something they have already done some work on @cf_tom.kelly @cf_jonmoss @cf_maki.mukai it might be a good idea to have guidelines published.


#18

Its scary Italy´s situation, without any doubt


#19

I expect we will see all kind of experts, pretty like we know them already. Some having and utilizing a lot of money to appear like an expert and reach a lot of people. Others having a certain charisma and people simply believe them. Superstars who show sporting or artistic achievements will have a lot of followers. Social Influencers can expand their activity from tourism and simple goods to many more. Of course we will have politicians asking for delegation. And companies who will use it like an ICO. As @Haskell-plus mentioned nonprofit organizations can suggest a project and there it becomes interesting: will people vote for something they can’t profit from? Of course there is a lot of people who recognize and is willing to vote for such projects. Let’s say to pay and organize IT/programming courses in certain regions. This brings up another question: where and how strong is the “glue” preventing separation and isolation of group of interests? I mean investors and profit oriented only people vs. social ideas, projects and appreciation.
Do we need some constitutional project categories having certain percentages? For example min 10% for development of the blockchain itself, 20% for social projects, 20% for 3th world, 5% for nature disaster recovery, 10% for start-ups, …

And if yes would the projects need multiple voting rounds? For example first after proposal they must propose their classification on these categories, because it often will be a mix of multiple ones. Only if a mayority agree with this proposal it will be approved to the next round.

None of this would make sense if the treasury is only intended for the development of Cardano, or if expectations are purely capitalist-oriented.