@Adafans_io You really need to do a better job of controlling the way you interact with people. I understand this is online communication and it’s easy to fall towards the end of the “normal interaction” spectrum seeing how there’s no physical dimension to temper you, but you come across as unstable, paranoid even. I mean the way you exploded after that one @ADALove comment made me think of a medieval bigot asking for someone to be burned at the stake. And it’s not just the ferocity of your response.
The manner in which you tried to stir the masses, so to speak, combined with your repeated, almost pitiful appeal to authority – again much like a religious zealot invoking God and righteousness on his side – made me extremely uncomfortable, I bet others as well. You made a cheap spectacle of yourself, answering thoughtful comments with savage, poorly constructed attacks – I would call them reprehensible, even, for reasons explained above. You lower the level of discourse in this forum with every word you type.
OK, so you disagree with this person, what of it? The only one who exhibits Fear/Uncertainty/Doubt traits around here, as far as I’m concerned, is yourself, what with your hysterical outbursts and name calling.
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another whale hunter or fork dreamer?
p.s. your post looks offtopic to me
Definitively in that company where the CEO has more control and responsibility.
But can please someone shed some light on the question if we are talking about (btw: centralized) companies and their stakeholders or an ecosystem?
What if you ask your question again by replacing “company” with ecosystem and “CEO” with a king and his lords? Would you feel comfortable in a system, where such individuals have the power to decide your taxes and other things they can “regulate”?
What do you think why mediaeval citizens didn’t simply fork the monarchy where they lived in and created their own?
IMHO it significantly depends on this different possible point of views, to estimate who is Mr.Right here.
In order to give you a visual presentation of what’s the current situation in crypto it could look very similar to this mediaeval map of central Europe
Tipp: try to read the entire article at Thirty Years' War - Wikipedia and just virtually replace words like religion, kingdom, emperor, troops… with known words from today’s crypto universe.
Don’t replace words like leader, revolt, battle, tolerance, escalation, consensus, (de)centralization.
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Forking is just copy/pasting the code. The anti-whale folks should not forget that Cardano is being build with “whales money”! They paid for IOHK working on Cardano for 5 years - but hey, let’s fork them cos they have to much - makes sense right?
Asking for a fork is an direct attack against all the people who invested during ICO and the whole Cardano project (Cardano foundation, Emurgo, Iohk)
More and more I am convinced that ada haters use this forum to spread lies and fud
just for clarification: I’m not only against forks (on both crypto and traditional IT coding projects) but also I would strongly recommend joining ideas, technologies and heads at least to define some common interoperability standards like TCP/IP.
I’m not sure if projects like Cardano became started because they understood that existing structures in bitcoin and ethereum prevent fundamental important evolutions, rising and growing from inside.
I am not against forks per see as well. But forking Cardano is not the same as forking Bitcoin. BTC didnt get build after people invested millions in it during the ICO. IOHK reponsability is only towards ICO investors. Only they paid for all this fun
So, he want’s to use the tech created with whale’s money, but redistribute it in a way so folks who invested the most and made Cardano possible . get nothing.
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I was told they were preparing a response to this thread. It’s been a while since they have forwarded the issue and concerns to Jeremy and Charles and we haven’t received any feedback yet.
The concerns were highlighted in an email and sent to @jonmoss. I received this reply on 08 March.
Hello Tim,
Thanks very much for your email and sorry for not responding sooner.
The summary and thoughts are incredibly valuable. So much so that Bruce passed your email onto Jeremy and Charles at IOHK - you should see a blog post coming soon about this.
If I can assist with anything else, please let me know.
Speak soon!
Best wishes,
Jon
So they are looking in to the concerns the community has regarding the genesis distribution.
The CEO does not own 30 procent of the shares.
26 Billion ADA were purchased and distributed to the general public who particiapted in the sales. They were not IOHK/Emurgo/CF representatives.
5 Billion Ada (20% of the amount sold) were received by the project partners, CF, Emurgo, IOHK, to use in the future. This is referred to as the devvelopment pool. To my knowledge, none of this has been used by any of the parties. The exact distribution between those entities is still under internal discussion.
That totals 31 billion, and once the reward era begins there will be new Ada minted for rewards for network participation and compute.
Eventually the money supply will hit 45 Billion at which point there will be no more Ada minted and the model for rewards will switch, probably to ‘mining’ fee type structure.
This quote is from Bruce Milligan, the general manager of the foundation.
I understand that some of you are becoming a bit impatient, personally I hope a response will be issued sooner rather than later. So our community can flourish again.
To those who are asking for admins on this thread, there are. Personally i don’t interfere with a community discussion as long as it is being done in a respectful manner, I’m not paid by the foundation, I’m a forum stalker who loves cardano and consequently was a good fit to moderate given how much time I’m spending on this discourse.
The foundation encourages all discussions that are Cardano related, it is part of their mandate to protect the ecosystem and their investors.
It is the main purpose of this forum to provide a platform that allows for fair and open discussions.
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Wow, this thread is still going.
I say they are responsible to the token holders, if they are the original ICO token holders hodling, or they came later by buying from the ICO token holders.
It’s open source, people can fork if they want, but it won’t go anywhere, the talent and money is with the foundation.
I’m not all that sympathetic toward complainers right now, as the price hit 13cents a couple of days back, people could have bought in quite cheaply if they wanted to. I hope lots of people did, thereby increasing the spread of token holders.
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again just for clarification of my opinion: I’m clearly against “whale’s get nothing”.
But it sounds logic to me that all the rest can and should join this “game” only if well balanced (!) rules are implemented, who allows a fair trading and living, independent of which caste you belong to.
The question is not mainly how much early investors should get but from whom.
I mean this in perspective to existing big global players who easily could become super-whales and the decide to form this monetary ecosystem in a way they want it.
Let’s call it the digital version of tax heavens, to mention only one example. Another one would be defining costs and hurdles like the monarchs did in their centuries.
So the main question for me , when I look back at the initial threads title is not that much if they freely donate their wealth. It’s all about: what are the fundamental rules for this game? Are they adeguated (note: I don’t write equal because that’s not the case per definition) for rich and poor, whatever that means in different regions of this planet?
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I think you will find that the latest IOHK video released today provides some new insight on the game theory. I haven’t got a chance to watch it completely, let me know what your thoughts are regarding the game theory provided by Prof Elias Koutsoupias.
Yes. They are responsible so the project succeeds So they have a responsibility towards all ada holderds… In a way… BUT, please don’t forget all IOHK (Emurgo, CF) funds come ONLY from the ICO investors!
I find it strange people dismiss so easily the importance of ICO investors. Without them investing millions in cardano - there wouldnt be nothing
Thanx Bullish
That is the answer I was hoping for.
Unfortunately my brief visit here was distinctly unpleasant. I asked a simple question and immediately Adafans_io attacked me and some other noob gave me a snooty lecture about economics without answering the question. Quite unpleasant. You need a mod and some behavioral rules on this forum or you will chase more newcomers away. Great pity. I really liked what you guys were doing, but if I invest I would have to come on the forum to see what’s going on. While that nutcase has free reign I will just get agitated. I might pop in again in 6 months or so to see if she’s still around and/or if you have a mod controlling the bitchiness. Don’t let one person destroy your community. Seen that happen before.
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I understand your frustration, unfortunately this thread has become quite heated and you got caught in the crossfire.
We are all hoping this gets resolved asap, an official response would be beneficial.
Some of our users can be a little over zealous in their replies. It’s the nature of a heated discussion. I hope you decide to stay a while longer and check out other and less heated threads.
Best of luck,
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Have also largely withdrawn as I don’t find myself in the way some people ‘express’ themselves on the forum anymore. We should be able to have respectful dialogues with divergent views, trying to build a deeper understanding by exchanging constructive thoughts in a rational way. In the last month scoring points, Ad Hominems, (attempting) polarisation, stonewalling and emotional outbursts seems to have become the new way to ‘discuss’. Not my cup of tea… And from what I see (from more then a few on the forum) I’m not the only one 
.
To get back to topic, isn’t this ultimately about ‘trust’?
Wisdom (as often) from @werkof 
This is the key issue no?
ADA is something that is supposedly to deeply root itself in society, and play an important role in social/ economic/ financial functions, potentially something that becomes difficult to ‘opt-out’ of. This is not some new kind of cornflakes that doesn’t touch the way society functions and that is just a product that is supposed to generate a profit for ???. DLT is ‘trustless’, the way I interpret this is that the system works in a fully transparent and predictable way, i.e. it is impossible for someone to subvert the system itself in a way to take advantage of it or to disadvantage another person. The parameters and functioning of the system are clear and fixed. Thus ‘trust’ in the system is not needed for people to rely on the results the system will produce. Everyone who gets involved from a user/ investor point of view is treated in the same way, independent of stake, time or intention. People who have invested more have a bigger (proportional) piece of the profits the system generates, that seems to be normal. But they shouldn’t be able to use the system itself (i.e. internally) to their advantage and to the detriment of other stakeholders.
If certain stakeholders would be able to subvert the system (as is possible in ‘Trusted’ Third Party systems) then the system cannot be trusted. Again, the key issue here is that we don’t know if this is a problem or not with ADA, maybe it’s not an issue at all. So I also wait for the officlal Cardano response on this.
‘Over and out’ for me again.
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thanks for pointing me there
In fact there is an interesting section at around https://youtu.be/MeNJoJOgMHU?t=21m44s who tells (at my knowledge) at first time something concrete about staking pools and the mechanism to have appropriate sizes. It’s still not clear in which relation this r-formula will stay. The “ideal” (most profitable) size of a staking-pool has some clear “edge” in this graph and it looks like the more the entire staked value grows the more pools should appear and run on earth. And this looks already way better than the existing BTC mining pool misery.
But as said it’s not clear to me if he’s talking about 1000, 1M or 1000M ADAs as an ideal PoS pool size.
So when we’re talking about staking pools who can earn money by simple staking (investing) I’m relatively relaxed. Of course, there is still a way that big players split up their monetary power and run several hundred or thousands of pools (BTW a new business idea for pools: “get your own vPool online in 60 seconds” ;- )
But all that is not what I’m concerned when I participate on this 300+ record thread here. The safe and reliable construction of the blockchain is of course of fundamental importance to me.
But there is another element who has to do with gaming theory and monetary staking power: the treasury system with his up/down voting for developement proposals.
It’s not clear to me if we’re talking about optional functional implementations for a certain real-worlds use case that could run on sidechains like a purchasable product or service where everyone can opt-in/out ? Or can such proposals even be evolutionary steps of the fundamental blockchain and it’s philosophy, including effective impacts for (certain) citizens living in that ecosystem?
Let me give an example: I expect most of you know the background of C.Hoskinson, the DAO, the Hard-fork and so on. Now read this to get an insight of what I mean.
https://www.coindesk.com/high-stakes-ethereums-fight-lost-funds-explained/
The first (for me) crucial point is
“_ …falls under the scrutiny of the EIP editors. If the EIP editors find the request to be technically correct and in tune with the “ethereum philosophy,” they can “merge” it as the draft into the next stage_”
So that is what they mean by decentralized? A small group of never democratically elected people who decide an control. Wow! Wtf?
One can perhaps expect a kind of deep dignity and extraordinary sense of responsibility. And Indeed during this actual discussion, they have “one core developer even stepped down from his role as code editor”
But in fact, this is not a democracy and definitively not what we should want to see in a global economic system that is claiming to replace centralized banks and governments.
But the problem cannot be simply solved by putting this decision in stakeholders hand. As others already mentioned it easily can be that voters have not enough deep knowledge about a certain decision. (side note: also code-is-law fans really shouldn’t believe that developers have the universal wisdom for every situation and question)
The problem with stakeholders is that they are anonymous, unknown. They can try to manipulate, gamble, impinge, … without losing their face. An ethereum EIP editor can’t act in such a way.
My question is, will whales be able to do that?
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As I see it @ADAlove intention of creating this thread to discuss and find a solution to the whale problem and concentration of ADA to a demography (if it really exist), which @ADAlove feels will have negative impact for the development of Cardano, nothing wrong in it. This official forum exist to discuss all related to Cardano. As we, all believe in Cardano project, we must discuss and find solutions on all foreseeable hurdles or problems that will cause harm to the Cardano project. I don’t believe that IOHK will do very thing and we have to just sit and wait to become rich, some of them really believe that, they attack very person who share their anxiety about the project as FUDs, because they believe any negative discussions will cause price of ADA to fall. Once, the voting centre is implemented in Cardano SL, Cardano will be completely autonomous, even IOHK will not have control over the development of Cardano project, they can only propose ideas or solutions, the stakeholders will have to decide by voting. Therefore, it is very important that we discuss very outcomes, problems, proposals etc., in this forum and come to consensus about what is best for the future of Cardano, so that we may educate or influence stakeholders to vote for the best proposals and solutions.
This forum has many different users (members), some want to develop wallets, some are investor and traders (here for price appreciation), some are here for develop DAPPs and smart contracts, some wants to contribute to the development, some wants run staking pools, and many other wants to use Cardano technology for their business or corporation. Many of them will have concerns about the project direction, decisions, and outcomes, since all are investing lot of time and fortune in Cardano. They will share their concerns and frustrations in this forum, as a community we must discuss those problems and should try to find a solution, or we have to reassure the confidence in the Cardano team politely, rather than attacking them as FUDs.
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All coins have “whale problems”!
Just check it - bitcoin, eth, xrp , bcash and so on
The solution is Time and Adoption. Not forking because one has more than ada than others! And the most terrifying fact is the people presented as “problems” are the one who helpd ada the most - and no one seems to notice it
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Whales of ada are awesome they made ada happen. I think the discussion is on principles of governance and how large whales can affect rules in game theory. Atleast it is for me.
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I hope this thread never get’s an official response from the Foundation, IOHK, or Emurgo, the Whales are simply the Whales of Cardano and we should hope they are responsible and have some of the same views that we hold, in the following video is CH describing how things are pretty much set in the structure of Cardano https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LpBjsJoGbA&t=10m43s
after this video I cannot imagine in any possible case that this platform will take a cent away from the Whales that invested into Cardano - go to 7:42 to hear how I feel CH describes the Whales.
The video itself is pretty much as good of an explanation from CH as you would ever get from anyone on why things will not change, watch the video.
I will say that progress has no end in sight and it is possible that in 40 years you might get everyone involved to come out and say that the distribution could have been done better but they did the best they could in the time.
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