Cardano Foundation announces its delegation methodology - CLOSED

[caseygibson]

As a very small pool operator for AOAUS, I’m not concerned at all about receiving 64M pledge right before the K parameter change. I’m very thankful that the Cardano Foundation is helping small pools.

While the timing is inconvenient, the one thing that small pools need at the moment is a chance to show that they can produce blocks if given the opportunity. Since my pool was created in epoch 212, I’ve been able to create 2 blocks with less than 80K delegated. A lot of small pools haven’t been that lucky.

[Woolf]

As one of the lucky pools (ATLAS) to receive a bump delegation from the CF program we’re in a bit of a predicament as to how to communicate this with our current and hopefully future delegators.

Up until today we have been promoting our pool as an alternative for delegators whose pool might become oversaturated after Dec 6th. Now we realize that we might actually become one of those pools! Since we read that there is still some tweaking going on with the program, we are wondering when we will have an update so that we can plan and inform accordingly. We’re especially interested if we can tell our delegators whether or not we will be below saturation again by Dec 6th.

Without knowing how much protocol and automation you have in place for this promotion program, we are also wondering if it might be possible to adapt and reduce the boost to half the size and subsequently promote twice the pools for twice the duration? We think this way the intended outcome of giving more small pools a push might be even more effective. Especially now during the change of the k-parameter.

[Viper_Stake-Pool]

Completely agree. While we are very grateful to be chosen to receive this stake, putting us above saturation right before the k decrease will likely make us worse off in the long run. We’ve already lost a 1.2M ADA delegator and, in addition to the risk of losing more of our delegators, we will likely miss out on attracting more delegators that are leaving big pools in the next couple of weeks.

[GenkiPool]

I share what my colleagues say, I am very grateful to have been one of those chosen to receive the delegation from the Cardano Foundation.

The problem is that now it is time for movements, since on December 6 the value k changes from k = 150 to k = 500, with k = 500 the pool enters saturation with 64M and with the delegation of the Cardano foundation now GENKIPOOL pool is saturated, which is why many people will think that the pool is saturated and they will not want to delegate with us.

Due to this situation, it would be good if they helped us spread the message or at least give us some information on how they will help us with this situation.

Also, I think it would be good if in case of not getting new or enough delegates due to this situation, they at least left in the affected pools the rewards that the foundation has obtained for delegating to the pools.

[MachTwo]

I hope someone sorts this before the 6 Dec.
The delegation of CF is really welcome and will assist the various chosen pools to create blocks and move them forward as a pool.

In view of the proposed changes to K, effective 6th Dec, the original concept is now not going to help, as every pool will automatically drop into ‘over saturated’.

Who needs to review this with some urgency to make the change ?

Maybe split the delegation, instead of 64M x 10 Pools,
Delegate 32M x 20 Pools

Ta

[rdlrt]

Team is full aware and they have said they will be sharing updated strategy soon, Please check updated thread here

[SeanAlimov]

With K increasing to 500, is it still 600k ADA to produce a block?

[SeanAlimov]

@Cardano-Foundation

Have a normal operating cost of less than 5% variable rate, and a fixed rate of around ₳340,

Does this include 5%? Or only what’s below 5%?

[cybershaman]

with k=500, the block making threshold is now around 1M, that is, greater than 50% chance. for a 0% chance of making ZERO blocks, you need 13M.

[Smaug]

When you say 0%, do you mean < 1% (0% rounded at 0 decimals)?

Because I don’t think that any stake value can offer an absolute guarantee of blocks.

[adatainment]

@SeanAlimov

Does this include 5%? Or only what’s below 5%?

Important question thanks @SeanAlimov, it is exactly like the text says - “less than 5% variable rate”:
operating cost < 5% (so 5% is already too much)

[cybershaman]

Right, approximation of 0%

[cybershaman]

Hey Andy, I was just thinking about my experience with Jormanager wallet interface, makes this process probably a lot easier for you guys. I don’t know what your using for the delegations, but just wanted to let you know this interface might be the ticket for the CF ticket!

One to many wallets coming soon!

[Dostrelith]

How does k affect block assignments?

[Serotonin]

It doesn’t, I assume he’s mixing up k and d.

[Raspool]

So basically, all the pools that haven’t yet produced a single block since August will remain in the shadow.

[drucks]

@Cardano-Foundation

• Hold between ₳25,000 and ₳2mn as a pledge, → 25000 is too high for small pools…2M is too much
• Operated by a stakepool operator that only runs one pool (difficult to verify but best effort attempt), → ok
• Have a normal operating cost of less than 5% variable rate, and a fixed rate of around ₳340, → right 5% or less
• Does not have a high number of ada already staked (less than 5% saturation), → ok
• Have validated blocks successfully in the past, → it’s scandalous… uptime 99% with 0 blocks…excluded!
• Have not been delegated to by the Cardano Foundation in the last four rounds. → ok

…and 15M to each pool is too much…

a lot of errors from cardano…i’m very sad…

#smallpoolsaredying

[Cardano-Foundation]

Hello all,

Thank you for participating in these discussions, and helping to shape our delegation strategy. Our CEO, Frederik Gregaard, and General Secretary, Hinrich Pfeifer, have now met virtually to discuss the evolution of the Cardano Foundation’s delegation methodology. We are pleased to share this short video with you, which should help explain how our current methodology was informed, and how it was implemented. Frederik and Hinrich also discuss their plans for the Cardano Foundation’s delegation methodology in the future.

Thank you, and please stay tuned for future updates as our delegation methodology evolves.

[adalapuz]

I appreciate what Cardano-Foundation is doing to achieve decentralization and I mostly agree to the criteria set forth in choosing the pools. I just have a question / somewhat a suggestion…

Regarding the criteria to choose pools which is one pool only, will you be considering the pool’s registration date as a check item? I believe, a pool that was recently created is most probably created by an operator of a previously big pool that have decided to spawn up a new pool anticipating the effect of the recent k = 500 factor change. Excluding the new pools (based on registration date), would then make it easier for CF to select the one-pools on the reduced list.

[Ilhan]

Thanks you @Cardano-Foundation for the video and update. The take away from the video is that there is not a in stone set staking methodology, but rather a constant evolving one that adjusts to the environment. Two important points Stake pools need to have, besides the requirements that are mentioned in the opening posts are:

1. Stake pools that are operating just one pool [SPACE ]
2. Stake pools that have a social good purpose [SPACE ]

1. One Fair Pool
Our pool Staker Space would like to get some support from the CF or IOG. When the SPs could register after the hard-fork. Staker Space registered pretty early on and it was gathering fair share of good delegations, there was a delay in proposing blocks by the community that was proposed by IOG as they wanted a more fair start, that made SPACE lose the advantage it had. I didn’t mind at the time as I thought that delegators would come by again, as they would recognize fair > unfair.

As time progressed the pool has now an active stake of ~950K ADA. I haven’t tried any tricks such as opening more pools, or playing around with commission (lowing and raising) I have been operating a fairly spread-out operation with 4 relays, but somehow the community doesn’t give anything about this. I hope the CF will value this steady operations by SPO’s that is good for the network.

Also what worries me is that another stakepool operator has a similar ticker name and I hope this doesn’t exclude my pool (SPACE) to be eligible for foundation delegation. I trust the CF can make the distinction between pools that have similar ticker names, but not the same SPO’s or maybe not yet. See the example image below when searching on pooltool.io for “space”

2. Social Good Part

I have been working on plan called Fair Squares, initially to be developed on substrate as a PoC. Apart from the framework that it will be used on,I will dedicate my time to create social coordination tools where people can organize themselves from the bottom-up that will have a social impact. Planning to create a dedicated page and promote it better the coming time as I will work independently on this and will dedicate my fulleat time, where I will rely on my pool together with other PoS protocols operations as my main income. You can find in the EU report on housing how it needs a structural change.

Summary Fair Squares

Fair Squares(FS) is focused on creating a fair housing market for investors and renters. Houses can be owned and rented out within rules and regulations, by consumers and SMEs. The fairness of the protocol is where the platform won’t allow more return than is set by it’s governance processes. The governors are it’s users and the council that is elected. This allows the investors still to get a decent return on their investment in a safe asset class and renters to get affordable housing.The novelty lies in it being an open system where communities can own houses and newcomers can easily enter the market, where rental properties are affordable and the entire process is transparent and fair.

3. Spreading the word

One of the best meet-ups in the Netherlands when we still could come together was co-organized by me, @Andy_Hendrikx, @Bullish and @tom.kelly. I forged the program, I had experience in organizing ETH-dev meetups and also organized Polkadot meetups all at the same place.

The only speaker at the time the CF could provide was David Bernardo, which would be a very thin meet-up as there were not many community initiatives at the time. I scraped the IOHK website to find someone and found Edsko de Vries who lived closeby to join and had an interesting topic. After that Manuel Chakravarty had a short talk and Philip Wadler hijacked the meetup after that. This was on of my greatest meetups and I co-organized and I did this so people would be informed and educated on what is to come. The Meetups were free, there was food and drinks that were provided by the company I work for. It was a full meetup 110+ persons were in the room.

But then when it’s time to be recognized for these efforts for spreading the word, nobody ties this to the pool SPACE. I hope by writing all this I have successfully reintroduced myself and my pool