Human Interoperability Metadata Standards and Ecosystem Maps: Do we need a set of metadata standards and definitions for defining ecosystem roles, relationships and sectors?

[Official_Jornlr]

The endpoint of the funnel needs to be more popular. The endpoint is where the conversation happens. 1.5% of internet users use Github source:Key GitHub Statistics in 2024 (Users, Employees, and Trends) and 12.6% of internet users use twitter source: X (Twitter) Statistics: How Many People Use X? (2024)

Now, if you want to encourage participation in something you could prop up a platform like Github but yet again and I am repeating myself here, it’s not as popular as other forms of media. In fact, Github is so obviously unpopular that any offical Governance announcemnt is usually done by Charles Hoskinson Via Youtube and Twitter. As an example, just the other night Hoskinson announced the 27th of August as the Chang upgrade! It could be not popular because it’s harder to use, or it is not gamified like social media, or it doesn’t have things like twitter spaces. Who knows. Really, it does not matter if you are carving out a space for your unique ecosystem, aka Cardano.

Sure, you could keep trying to play into @COSDpool’s deranged idea that shifting to Github will work but the idea has 3+ years in this ecosystem of proving quite the opposite of what @COSDpool wants. So what do I think is a safer bet to actually promote governance or to actually organize a place where people could discuss governance of cardano or role defining or whatever else it may be? I think Vyra or CardanoSpot because they are closer to that of twitter than Github.

In regards to point 1, I agree, the issue isn’t one or the other. In fact, in my original post I state there is a place for CIPs and Github could be used but it will NEVER be the true endpoint for discussing CIP stuff if you want large scale participation or in the case of @COSDpool you want people to be able to recognize the work you do. If you wanted a true shift to Github, ask Charles Hoskinson to only make official posts on Github first and foremost and only have official governance procedure on Github, but he won’t do it! I already know he wont!

In regards to point 2, yeah I agree! Since I started participating in Cardano again during Fund 7, I have wanted that! I have wanted a social media website that integrates other aspects of the internet such as Github! In fact, I call it my 3 pronged solution as you can see here. I have been advocating this for many years. I even spoke to you on Linkedin about the proper form of a social media website: Proof of Article (BIG ASK) | Lido Nation English

In regards to point 3 and getting back to what we should be talking about, the standardization of roles and processes is something we just need to write down. I have tried to get people like Daniel Ribar in catalyst just to write something down or allow X legal document to stand and it has been like pulling teeth. Essentially impossible. As a result, the common standards and procedure for literally everything in this ecosystem (not just catalyst) have just floated around until we have some sort of frankenstein proceess that works. There is a lot of procedure that already exists but this gets back to what @COSDpool was saying about CIP-0001 for example. The CIP “Doesn’t and shouldn’t have a scope for how people should learn about what CIPs are”. This does not mean that the role isn’t defined or the process of creating or managing CIP’s doesn’t exist, it’s just simply that no one has written anything down so no one knows what is official or even worse, what websites are official! Then @COSDpool wonder’s why nobody participates in CIPs or why nobody knows what he does because he has made the process of learning what his defined role in the ecosystem is so impossibly hard to understand for the average person that they just give up and ignore him. Yes, IOG could have helped him but he could have helped himself too which is why I have no sympathy for him. Especially in the past when he has told me I am wrong.

Overall, the roles already exist and we need to enshrine those roles into the Constitution if you want the people following on your roadmap to understand this ecosystem. Then from there, you need technical manuals explaining those roles. If you want people to then participate in specific parts of the ecosystem. You need a REALISTIC designated place for them to participate.

Lastly, there is this toxic general attitude that if we just write things on paper that we are doing something anti-crypto/centralized/fascist and as a result whenever someone tries to define roles like you are, some person with an extremist mindset about centralization comes along and says ‘we can’t do that’, or ‘we should just have a code of conduct instead’, or ‘Le Govonment es Bad’.

So yeah, if you want to actually define roles, go ahead. I have been trying to do that for years. I will add any defined roles that you want to my constitutional draft. Just let me know. I have worked in government for the United States for 8 years now and I would love it if someone would actually trust what I am saying for once. I have been in Cardano for 5 years now and I have no clue why we keep doing the same shit over and over and expecting different results. Link to my constitution for CIP-1694:

Legal Cip-1694 Draft

[Official_Jornlr]

@benohanlon

When I write a CPS I am saying I am a lot more serious about this than most other conversations. This is the context and message I was alluding to but perhaps I failed.

I want to talk about this specifically. You may think you are being more serious and you are probably more serious than most people in this ecosystem but it is not what you believe. It is what others in this ecosystem believe and perceive. Hence, why I put influencers right in the center of your map. If an influncer perceives your CIP as trash on twitter, it’s trash in the current state of affairs. How do you change that? Make another platform the only serious platform for governance. If you want more than 2000 people to vote in your governance then make it something popular like twitter but make it your own. Kinda like what Trump did with truth social.

In regards to my map, It could be the case that a DRep is at the end of each line or it could be Cardano Japan, The Atlantic Council, and Eastern Cardano Community fulfilling both roles as those are popular influencers and there is nothing in CIP-1694 that says they can’t do both. Or maybe just a huge block of SPO’s. Right now it’s not the case.

I hope there is a DRep at the end of each of those. That would be nice.

@Terminada In regards to email marketing, I never said there is no discussion. I only said it’s a way to drive traffic to where the discussion actually takes place. To clarify even further, when I say where the discussion takes place, I am not saying there is no discussion there. I am saying that if you want actual discussion around CIPs or even voting for that matter which has an effect on Governance, you will never use Github for that.

[Terminada]

@Official_Jornlr

The endpoint of the funnel needs to be more popular. The endpoint is where the conversation happens. 1.5% of internet users use Github … and 12.6% of internet users use twitter

I think there may be quite a lot of self selecting going on in those statistics. As @benohanlon indicated GitHub might be more appropriate for serious and technical discussions which require more thought whereas twitter might be better for spitballing ideas right off the top of your head. My guess is that people choose social media outlets they prefer based upon what they are trying to achieve and many use different mediums for different discussions. For example Pi is active on twitter and GitHub but the discussions may be quite different.

@benohanlon: One thing that concerns me about ideas like this map is that it could facilitate the coalescence of voting cliques where various “influencers” can obtain disproportionate voting power. Unfortunately, I think “influencers” will always wield excessive power and potentially drown out sane technical discussions, but I don’t think we want to facilitate that process. For example: in Australia we export an absolute S.ton of coal, oil, gas and uranium to China and elsewhere, And we exist on one of the oldest, most stable tectonic plates with no earthquakes or tsunamis, and much of the country is desert. Yet we can’t agree on building even one nuclear power plant and China has cheaper electricity than us even though we sell them all the coal, natural gas and uranium to generate it. Unfortunately, that is the power of voting “influencers”. I like the fact that some more sane technically minded individuals discuss evolving the Cardano protocol and middleware solutions over on GitHub. If it wasn’t for such Cardano people until now, I think we might have already thrown out determinism in favour of competing with Solana over transaction speed.

[Official_Jornlr]

Yep which is why I advocate for CardanoSpot or Vyra as the official governance platform. Not twitter or Github. I only used twitter stats to show how irrelevant Github is if you want mass adoption which I am assuming we want for Chang. I mean, correct me if I am wrong and you guys want the opposite.

Well, there you go @benohanlon. If Pi has different conversations on both platforms no wonder there is such a disconnect. That’s the influencer problem I am talking about. No wonder nobody knows what you guys are doing @COSDpool. One of your own isn’t putting out consistent information or at the very least supportive. Correct me if I am wrong of course.

[Terminada]

@Official_Jornlr

I advocate for CardanoSpot or Vyra as the official governance platform

I joined up to Vyra yesterday after reading your post, registered with a few rooms, and I posted a bug message. I have only seen one new message in the past 24hrs and no response yet to my bug message. I like their ideals but they are using a centralised server and there currently appears to be no way for that to be decentralised. I just don’t think Vyra is ready yet but hopefully it will grow and improve in decentralisation. I also registered with CardanoSpot (run by founding entity Emurgo) way back when it was initially called “CardanoClan” but I don’t really use it because I prefer this Cardano Forum.

I also use Matrix. At least with Matrix you can run your own server to remove the dependence on a centralised entity and truly own your own data.

This forum is reasonably active and is owned and run by Cardano Foundation which is one of the 3 founding entities. And importantly, CF is the entity tasked with representing the Cardano community.

@Official_Jornlr: I only mentioned Pi because you dropped his name in one of your posts. I don’t seek to imply anything about how Pi feels about GitHub versus twitter/X. I simply mention that when I read his posts on the different mediums they appear to me to be worded somewhat more technically on GitHub. Which makes sense to my mind since the GitHub audience is different. Furthermore, I am only mentioning this to make the case for why I think GitHub is the ideal place to thrash out “standards for defining ecosystem roles, relationships and sectors”.

Also, I am not suggesting that any of the social media “influencers” you refer to should be forced to use GitHub. They can keep doing their influencing wherever they please and if they don’t want to contribute any technical discussion points on GitHub then they can always get behind someone who they agree with and support their efforts.

However, I strongly agree with your frustration about there being no single heavily adopted social media platform which is decentralised and permissionless. This is a massive problem creating a huge amount of itch that needs to be scratched. But if I squint hard enough I think I can see the building blocks for a future great social media system getting built.

[Official_Jornlr]

Yeah, I agree. Vyra aint ready yet cus no one from IOG/CF/Emurgo has the balls to break away from a traditional platform and endorse a platform like Vyra for governance.

The idea that just cus they use a centralized server gets at this whole toxic culture of “We can’t do X because X isn’t decentralized”. Idk how Vyra not being decentralized has anything to do with the argument. Are you gunna tell me Github is decentralized or something? That would be the biggest joke ever.

Cool let’s use Matrix then! Oh wait, this is another repository like Github. Looks like a straight wikipedia clone. Like that’s going to attract governance. Like that’s going to foster discussion. Like that’s going to garner voter participation. I want a REAL solution here. A REALISTIC solution. Not these pie in the sky fantasies. If Matrix was built like an actual discussion platform, then I would say go ahead and use it but it’s built like Wikipedia.

Well, CF has consistently done a piss poor job at promoting governance within the community. I mean, I was the only one who posted voting links on here and candidate platforms for the ICC. Cool they endorse some forums but they clearly don’t know what they are doing. I am begging for better and more consistent marketing and PR from them. They don’t know the first rule of marketing and PR which is consistency.

@Terminada

to contribute any technical discussion points on GitHub then they can always get behind someone who they agree with and support their efforts.

Again, I am not advocating for them to discuss technical points. I am advocating for them to discuss Governance. Not everything has to be on the blockchain just yet. Yes, technical stuff is a part of governance but the idea comes first. They need to be able to discuss governance and then that needs to trickle into technical solutions. The idea needs to be solid and explanable via text and then it can be translated into code. The endpoint is the governance and then the technical is just a bonus on top if it is feasible via the blockchain. Right now people keep fighting for technical to just magically create the solution without prior thought. This is 100% antithetical to how governance should work and I am saying this again, it’s why as CODS points out there is a lack of appreciation for what he does because like in CIP-0001 things are not clearly defined!

[Terminada]

I don’t know why @Official_Jornlr but every time I read one of your posts it conjures a shouting voice in my head. Do you intend your posts to read that way?

@Official_Jornlr

Are you gunna tell me Github is decentralized or something? That would be the biggest joke ever.

You know that GitHub uses Git, right?

[COSDpool]

I’ll be publishing a Mermaid representation of CIP “states” (the coloured tags) this week for the CIP Wiki and I’ll send it by way of example when ready.

@benohanlon here it is: CIP Wiki > 301. State tagging > State flow diagram

I do think an ecosystem map in Mermaid would be bigger but less dense, since the graph as you have conceived it would generally be undirected & not have state transitions on all the lines drawn between the elements.

[Official_Jornlr]

Explain to me how you equate Git with decentralization. All Git does is track shit. Pointing to some random feature that GitHub has as some sort of gotcha isn’t an argument. Actually argue something relevant if you are going to reply to my comments.

[NilsCodes]

While I understand that the ecosystem map is still a work in progress, and may always be, as we discover new roles required to run, and there will always be discussions about how granular it goes, I am looking to at least use it as a starting point for my communication platform “Reach Your People”.

@benohanlon Would you be able to drop the list of currently defined roles in here, or in another text-only medium (vs. an image that I’d have to OCR them out of)? That would help me make the options to self-identify when adding your own projects to RYP.

Thanks!

~ Nils

[COSDpool]

@NilsCodes

@benohanlon Would you be able to drop the list of currently defined roles in here, or in another text-only medium

I also vote for posting the ecosystem text outline here — or maybe the IOG Discord where it’s already been discussed — since I could use it as the starting point for a Mermaid based map.

[Terminada]

I really believe this ecosystem map needs to be version controlled on GitHub through the CIP/CPS process.

Simply putting a person/company in shining lights on a sanctioned and potentially well recognised map, enables people to feel comfortable delegating without actually thinking much. Maps like this have the potential to subtly pervert governance.

[benohanlon]

Yes, I am working towards getting sign-off on the framework and full list so I can share it with you all here and it’ll support the Cardano Problem Statement. I will loop back shortly.

[fergiemiller]

Thanks Ben - great visual

I’d be curios to learn how folk people think IO Research can support the longer term vision for and growth of different roles in the community

[YUTA_Oishi]

Thank you for the wonderful project.
This may be the final stage, but I think that by placing more easily understandable symbols, we can get the benefit of greatly increasing understandability, at the expense of some loss of rich natural beauty and rigor.
I am attaching a table created by me and other Japanese designers.
I look forward to speaking with you again in Osaka!

[Nanami]

@HD_5000

Hi Ben
Your question stuck a nerve with me. I struggle with my “cardano identity” or being self-aware. I don’t know where I “belong” on the map and don’t want to limit myself, to self-report and represent myself accurately. I do believe this is the primary reason I don’t participate more in Discord/working groups. Even though I have attended the workshops IRL, Governance CIP 1964 workshop(6/23), Drep workshop (2/24), Drep Pioneers workshop(6/24), and now the Beta Constitutional workshop at Rare(8/24). So defining ecosystem roles, relationships standards would be something nice to put out. Thanks

I have to agree. At first glance, defining roles is a really good idea for a DAO. however, this does not take into account the psychological component of some individuals

[benohanlon]

I’ve enjoyed reading your comments. This is a thank you for all the valuable input so far. It’s been a few weeks since I got back from Japanese leg of the Asia Tour and could sit down and write a reply, and now that I have time, I’d like to accomplish two things:

1. I suggest we focus the discussion in this thread on the core issue of proximity bias and determine if it’s a problem worth addressing. If we agree it is, we can consider solutions to tackle in a future CIP. To clarify, a Cardano Problem Statement identifies an issue, while a Cardano Improvement Proposal suggests a solution. My intention is to first establish if we have a consensus on the problem and its priority.
2. In this post I will share the underlying framework of roles, sectors, and definitions that we used to create the map. This is the framework we validated with 20 Key Opinion Leaders (KOLs) in Cardano’s ecosystem—the set of definitions many of you have requested. I believe we could validate such a framework at scale through the improvement proposals. People could then build on top of that in various ways, such as with third-party data, on-chain census, or ecosystem distribution channels using something like Catalyst’s keychain to signify what is signal and noise etc… and more.

With that in mind, I agree with much of the feedback. However, I won’t be replying to suggestions for solutions because my intention is to first validate the problem and reach a consensus on the priority. Things like better visuals are solutions we’ll address later if we agree the problem is worth solving and it’s a priority.

As a starting point, please find attached a text list of the proposed Roles & Sectors, along with their suggested definitions. We’re sharing this now to help community members navigate the map, discuss the accuracy and completeness of the proposed roles, sectors, and definitions, and offer refinements and additional details. In the near future, Intersect will work on an Improvement Proposal to incorporate feedback and further develop the map.

Cardano Ecosystem Map - Roles & Sectors Definitions - Definitions v1.1.pdf (100.2 KB)

This framework is a step toward exploring the broader human interoperability challenges in our ecosystem. By developing a common language and set of standards, could we ensure we’re discussing and conceptualizing the same ideas—laying a foundation for effective representation and self-governance.

Let’s consider three key questions regarding proximity bias in Cardano:

• Is proximity bias a problem in our ecosystem? This occurs when we favor what’s familiar or close to us, potentially overlooking valuable but less visible parts of the ecosystem. For example; DReps must represent the entire ecosystem, not just their immediate circle. Does proximity bias limit their viewpoint, and potentially hinder their ability to make well-rounded decisions for Cardano?
• Is it a problem worth solving? We need to evaluate whether addressing proximity bias could significantly improve decision-making and representation within Cardano, I’d argue particularly for DReps.
• Is it a priority? Given the upcoming constitution ratification and the community’s increasing role in self-governance and treasury decisions, we must determine how urgent it is to develop a common language for self-description and ecosystem understanding.

Your insights on these questions will guide our community’s next steps in determining whether to invest time and resources in writing a Cardano Problem Statement in the improvement proposals GitHub - cardano-foundation/CIPs: Cardano Improvement Proposals (CIPs). If we do, I think it’d be great to co-author it in English, Japanese and Spanish.

Proximity Bias Problem

English Version

Japanese Version

[everyepoch]

I see the problem you’ve outlined - I consider how to develop a unified ecosystem map without proximity bias.

[earncoinpool]

1. Yes, Proximity bias is a problem in our ecosystem, many examples of it currently.

2. Yes, I believe it is worth solving. The more connected the community is the stronger it will be.

3. Yes, it is a priority to bring the community together and to make the community more aware of each other is important moving forward including in governance.

[sirwolcott]

Hi Ben,

Absolutely—yes, yes, and yes. I love the rhythm of your ideas! It’s been inspiring to see you dive into this topic full-time and travel internationally over the past year.

From my experience, when inviting people to participate in governance upgrades or standards-building exercises, they appreciate knowing the specific scope of their involvement. We all like to start something and finish it, so defining our “definition of done” is crucial.

Could we focus on that first? Once we have a shared understanding, you or others could access some funds to further explore this intentionally, potentially leading to a more structured second proposal that builds the product.

Visual ecosystem mapping has been both a historical and proposed need. It serves as an accountability mechanism and likely won’t be developed through volunteerism alone. Hence why you are out here driving a beat.

That said, research could still come from volunteer efforts, gathering valuable insights over time that could be shaped into something meaningful. Whether contributors are credited or compensated is up for debate, but the result could still be an asset for the open-source community.

Personally, I’m curious to see the impact of a well-maintained, opt-in ecosystem map in our cloud-first economy. Happy to help, I could riff with you on any number of these topics. Here’s my availability.

Best regards,
Peter