XXX The Voice of the Community on the Cardano Foundation Board XXX

English General Discussions
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The inspiration of this idea comes from the realization that being lucky (being part of the Guardians of Cardano) should not put you ahead (being the ones considered for the Board position at the Cardano Foundation) of the Community.

Such a Top-Down appointment for Community representative(s) is totally wrong, artificial and encourages loyalty and accountability towards the Top and not the Community itself. I am kind of shocked how others don’t feel like this way and join this movement putting all our differences aside.

But the general idea of having The Voice of the Community on the Board is very good and the only way it’s legitimate & authentic if it’s managed by a Bottom-Up Democratic Process. This is the only thing, which is initially proposed to make this possible.

Let the Community elect it’s representatives from the Community!

I am very excited about this as this would really spice up the Community life here and enable a Know Your Community experience having lot of added values on the way.

This initial proposal has been then further enriched with a vision of the Cardano Social Council (suggested 7-11 members form around the World in a light weight organization) and the respective 5 points, which all together outlines one possible evolution of the Bottom-Up movement. Whether this vision is good or not it requires further analysis and a broader Community consensus.

Regarding the criticism on bureaucracy, not all organizations are bureaucratic. It’s caused by any combination of bad processes, bad control, bad KPIs, bad incentives, bad technology, bad people or simply not having continuous improvement. You can eliminate bureaucracy by design and quality management of operations.

There are many high performance, agile and efficient organizations who have shared their recipes for success and set the standards.

To have efficient governance without human capital and intelligence is maybe a decade away when AI may (partially?) take on this role (running on the Blockchain?). Put it simply there is no time for years of research & implementation into this area to have a fully automated solution, we need it now and have to act fast. It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t in parallel spin off such a research stream and once tangible results show themselves slowly migrate to more automation. The example I started this thought process with is alarming, that we have to act, now!

Until there is such a high ratio of the adoption it won’t be possible to eliminate the need of the horizontally scaled extremely valuable human capital and intelligence specialized on the very custom (deeply vertical) local context (geographical, economical, legal, political, technological, cultural, social, environmental) of a particular segment of the Ecosystem and Community. State of the art governance will be necessary to guide the adoption process and provide authentic feedback loop to the driving forces.

A Bottom-Up organization is also very efficient in controlling and providing transparency on all the Top-Down initiatives (Ambassadors and Cardano Hubs). Who is going to control whether these functions will use their resources in a fair and efficient way?

Such Bottom-Up governance structures and patterns will also be necessary for the delegates platform (in liquid democracy) and for more advanced multilevel, hierarchical treasury we might be heading towards.

At some point the Cardano Foundation may die off (run out of resources), but you will need such a Community virtual organization to sustain, maybe as a DAO on the Cardano Blockchain once legislation, compliance and regulation have caught up on such organizational structures.

Being decentralized doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be organized. Having hierarchy doesn’t mean you have bureaucracy. Putting money in a system with some level of human control doesn’t necessarily make it corrupt. These are all design, operational and governance challenges we can and we have to overcome.

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I guess if you were right, then Parsons was right of doing nothing and just waiting for Shelley’s online.

Unfortunately the reality isn’t like this. The blockchain technology and governance is just one of many tools we can use. It’s actually not a A or B solution, and it’s a A + B solution.

There are still many real-life things, such as laws and regulations, that we needed to follow. The blockchain governance simply cannot solve any problem at this time period, the Adas we hold have a really vague definition in different country’s interpretation. Some existing models just cannot vanish overnight.

The ICO model is new and cool, but it also brings lots legal and supervisory problems.

We are in a transitional period, we might get better in next 10 years, or not. So i guess we need to combine both of the conventional and innovative approaches in order to walk through it.

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Well said bobert. Which politician or party kept their campaign promises to return power and money to the people? That’s right, its never happened because humans self corrupt 100% of the time - it’s the DNA of being human - there has never been and there never will be exceptions. Therefore the proposal of a temporary elected group is simply asinine.

Representative democracies reliably self corrupt with their boots on all our necks…in all political systems, we live out our lives in a Truman Show nightmare, at best. Our reality suffers the additional insanity of mass genocide and economic enslavement.

It doesn’t matter in the end whether enslavement promoters suffer ignorance, stupidity, sociopathy or all, the end result is the same. This is why the scheme must be exposed early, and destroyed.

We must envision, we must fight for a Pure Democracy in which we ALL have EQUAL influence, EQUAL voice, EQUAL POTENTIAL to navigate Cardano according to our conscious.

Pure Democracies aren’t complicated. Pure Democracies don’t require endless, convoluting campaigns. Why? Because TRUST IS NOT REQUIRED! Haven’t we all suffered enough by violations of trust?

Trusting another with your sovereignty is relinquishing your life. Any person who’s promoting - within or without the CF - a representative, a delegate model, is advocating acts of violence against Cardano. Sound extreme? Open your mind and look for yourself. What do you call the dystopian rubble in the wake the world’s ruling elite?

There are a couple of people in this thread (you know who you are) who are ALREADY acting on our behalf with the CF. Who by there actions, claim to posses gifts of comprehension and insight far superior to yours, or have unbridled ambitions to usurp power, or both - BOTH have historically been the diagnosis.

YOU DO NOT HAVE MY PERMISSION TO SPEAK FOR ME! YOU HAVE NO AUTHORITY TO ACT ON MY BEHALF. YOU SHOULD BE BANNED FROM THIS COMMUNITY AS YOU ARE FROM TELEGRAM AND THE CARDANO EFFECT!

THE CF BETTER NOT WASTE 1 satoshi of CARDANO’s more than $60,000,000. on any election scheme or its variant. The CF would be well advised to immediately DISTANCE itself from the above referenced individuals.

VERIFY EVERYTHING FOR YOURSELF, only then can you be certain this is in fact true. And, only then can your countermeasures be truly effective…they must be!

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I haven’t the time presently to address individually your fallacious arguments - it’s Christmas Day.

I’ll leave you with this: You’d do well to understand, the more we learn, the more we realize an absolute truth, we actually know less today than we did the day before. You seem to think you understand great deal in relative terms. This can only mean one thing…you are young. You think you’re the only one with grad degrees? Degree’s are just nothing more than a hole punched. It doesn’t mean you know a darn thing.

Step back and ask the $60,000,000,000 question, WHY DO I THINK WHAT I THINK :thinking:!

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Let’s not speak about the fact that you are anonymous and don’t disclose your identity or the reason of your anonymity. That’s always shady and gives much less credibility to your criticism. I still believe that you have a double profile on the Forum, that would explain this attitude.

Let’s also not speak about the fact that you systematically come and hunt on topics I have created. Anyone can see you are exclusively busy with these topics. I take it as a compliment :slight_smile: https://forum.cardano.org/u/deepau/activity/replies

So now let’s rather focus on your idea of democracy.

Do you think in a liquid democracy when you might delegate your votes you don’t need to trust your delegates? Representative democracy is obviously worse in a sense that you can’t revoke your delegation for the elected period and eliminate the vote done in your name. If you lack deep knowledge, serious experience, tremendous wisdom and considerable time and effort to analyze in all the topics you have to vote on (most of us do), then you will not be able to judge if your delegated voting right has been misused by any other interest then the best interest of the Cardano Ecosystem and you will not revoke your delegation and vote.

True democracy only works when everyone participating is highly knowledgeable and is exposed to the same, accurate and reliable set one contextual information about a topic and people invest the necessity time, effort and learning to allow for educated decision making. When this is not the case there won’t be tremendous difference between the representative and liquid democracy and trust will be imminently necessary. The only significant difference I see is that once trust is lost the liquid democracy is much faster and efficient allowing you to take action. Populism is the best example how democracy dies and we have to avoid it to put its foot in the Cardano Ecosystem.

How do you feel about having the Guardians, a limited group of “lucky” people from the Community being considered for a Board Membership? IMO having a representative democracy in a bottom-up movement is still much better then having representatives appointed by the Top. This is the main message by this thread that you fully ignored. What would be your solution for this scenario?

Friendly note: using capital letters doesn’t make your message stronger or more punchy, it just suggests your are in an unstable emotional state, in which usually people don’t think clearly.

Merry Christmas & Peace :gift::christmas_tree:

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First - Clearly, you misunderstand my position. A Pure Democracy is Cardano’s best hope to achieve its potential. A Representative Democracy, history teaches us, will destroy Cardano in time. We must first have understood the sign posts before we argue over the best course.

Second - It would be best if you learn to refrain from straw man diversions and personal attacks. Perhaps then we may focus more on what is, our corpus. It’s apparent you’re frustrated you haven’t any irrelevant flesh to bite to create distractions. This is good. Attention should be on the subject, not boogie man. Obviously, displaying a name or a picture has no bearing on your agenda or arguments surrounding it. To put it simply, your ambition for an elected group ie. a REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY :joy: will be VERY profitable for a very few at the expense of Cardano ie. everyone. If you no longer support this model, then you have grown.

Again, I encourage you to redirect your ambitions towards supporting principles, ideals, tenets which serve CARDANO at large, and to learn, truly learn about the reality- aftermath of popular political systems.

Thugs and thieves run for office because they can’t make the same cash and position any other way. We mustn’t enable a power grab within Cardano. I will not. It’s a small world :wink:

Third - You flatter yourself. I read a great deal of the forum - I first track topics I deem interesting and/or important. Invariably, you’re incorporated in ALL topics wrt governance - obviously no surprise there. What this means is, you’re coming after me on those threads you didn’t create. Hope this makes sense.

Pure Democracy: uncomplicated, blockchain compatible, and most importantly, inclusive of EVERY SINGLE Cardano Nation (Nation… that works :blush:) citizen. No intermediary, no president :us: no electoral college, no senate, congress, no prime minister, no chancellor, no parlament :de:
no power concentration, no thugs :pirate_flag:

FOURTH -
YOU DO NOT HAVE MY PERMISSION TO SPEAK FOR ME! YOU HAVE NO AUTHORITY TO ACT ON MY BEHALF! YOU SHOULD BE BANNED FROM THIS COMMUNITY AS YOU ARE FROM TELEGRAM AND THE CARDANO EFFECT!

Merry Christmas to you as well! May you achieve all that you dream, somewhere else …:waxing_gibbous_moon:

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In the Moon?.

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We have all in that.

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deepau you are not to be trusted and this according to your own admission. “As you say scheme must be exposed early, and destroyed” .“We must envision, we must fight for a Pure Democracy in which we ALL have EQUAL influence, EQUAL voice, EQUAL POTENTIAL to navigate Cardano according to our conscious.”

Okay you failed the first time to answer me when asked why you anonymous? disclose your identity so the good people of Cardano can take you seriously. All the people you have a gripe with are clearly identifiable. Surely your conscious that you put so much emphasis on should have told you by now To Reveal your identity,

So at the moment nobody can VERIFY who you are or if you have two or more identities. I AM TRYING TO GET THE FACTS. You can not preach and make judgement calls as a nom de plume sitting behind a brick wall without revealing who you are and not showing contact details if issuing out advise as you are doing.

In truth Pure Democracy does not exist in the real world.

Your sarcastic remark “Merry Christmas to you as well! May you achieve all that you dream, somewhere else …” reveals much about what type of person you are. YOU LIVING IN A PIPE DREAM.

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You didn’t respond to my question about the Guardians & Board position. For multiple comments carefully ignoring this topic suggests you are either positive with the method (having the Top select Community representatives), which is totally contradicting your pure democracy claim or you are simply very close to the Guardians who didn’t yet join this movement (to select representatives from a bottom-up Community Process, from the Community, elected by the Community). In either case it’s really embarrassing for you…

To be banned from the Community on your advise? Is this compatible with your pure democracy idealism? :slight_smile:

I am not banned from Telegram :))) Where did you get this crap from? :slight_smile:

Cardano Effect? I had a strong disagreement with Rick, which he brought to a personal context and didn’t want to take our argument to the Cardano Effect. I don’t see an issue about this, Cardano Effect is put ahead to show the bright side, the best of Cardano and such a Community conflict doesn’t belong there. I am pretty sure if the Cardano Social Council materializes (depends on the CF decision) it would be a very nice and special Community topic, which would be discussed there.

The problem I see is that even if you reveal your identity, how are you gonna be trusted it’s the real one?

Because in any System trust or reputation (history of added value, contributions) is needed to have some credibility, especially for such controversial arguments.

But let’s not steer off this topic so much.

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By what metric do you wish to judge me? My ethnicity, gender, race, religion, my national origin, my formal education?

Who shall be empowered to judge if I have the right to participate, to vote in the Cardano Nation? Bertalan Vecsei, Nathan Kaiser, Eystein Magnus Hansen, you? Do you not understand I am arguing in defense of your ability to directly participate via the installation of an immutable Pure Democracy, to vote in the Cardano Nation? Or is it you’re betting on immunity? Such immunity is a delusion. This is the very same power mechanism which enabled the massacre, the genocide of Native America, Germany, Darfur, Bosnia, Rwanda, Congo, Cambodia, Armenia, Haiti…and of course, the atrocities continue as you debate the very means by which nascent power concentration is allowed to be born.

A great man, Martin Luther King once said, “I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.” Does the color of our skin, the God(s) we praise, where we were born, the station/power of our family, our net worth, what we state about ourselves, add or subtract to our value here in the Cardano Nation? I’d never met Charles Hoskinson before Etherium came to be, but in short order, I decided he warrants an investment of my time which is far, far more valuable to me than money. Its never taken me less than 30 min with a family &/or child from a so called “third world,” to take a decision to sponsor them, because what matters to me is the person, not “guidance” from a polluted, aggrandizing middleman, counterparty, agent…choose your sign post, they all point to the same meat sack.

No, I will have what I say succeed or fail on merits alone. I encourage you to spend time with member’s ideas, and not struggle to judge those ideas through the lens of their crafted veneer.

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I don’t wish to judge you mate, I try to understand you. And your past, your social network, your professional career could all help to bring some clarity into your views and explain why you very obviously don’t respond on the core proposal here, that a Community representative for the Board should be elected by the Community and not appointed by the Board.

You are acting in a very strange way, your anonymity and constant distraction from the key proposal, something simply doesn’t feel OK with you… no matter there a some of your views that I even agree with.

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Well now i have heard it all.

You so self centered, you’re no earthly good. Boy, sorry deepau you need help and you need it fast.
I’m sorry just not going to waste anymore time replying to someone who has show they are not genuine or should be trusted.

Peace, all the best.

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Cardano Nation:

  1. For me, Cardano is # 1. I’ve made my allegiance to Cardano explicitly clear for anyone to vet. Please research the following quotes in context. This is your only way to appreciate their significance, and the only defense you have against an assault of defensive retorts which are undoubtedly to come.

  2. My sincere apology to any I have quoted if doing so has caused feelings of displeasure or offense. Obviously, my intention is to make the character of bercinho and Eystein less opaque, and to render the inevitable future crafted facades impotent with facts. The expression, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me! ", seems very appropriate here.

  3. To forum admin: Yes, indeed I could have linked the following, but I felt it more honest and effective to provide short excerpts, perhaps enabling a reader to more easily determine interest. I suppose you could describe my objective as being analogous to a terrier eliminating rats before they geld a sleeping stallion…Cardano being the stallion.

bercinho said: I am proud of my history here.

my response: I am not at all surprised by this statement as you’re quite predictable. I am convinced you are indeed a bad-actor, and you should be effectively barred from any and all Cardano related business of any kind.

Are you also proud of the following small sample of member sentiment you have earned? :

The following quotes were directed to bercinho specifically:

– Some of the same qualities that made Bert a good “wartime” leader (though never elected) make him a bad peacetime leader – or even, for me, colleague…he’s also an autocrat. Due to his style I could never work either under or alongside him, outside of such an emergency as the Parsons issue.

– Looks like you’re trying to take the credit for this idea, but it is obvious that you know we were already considering it. In fact I know who told you. It’s always the Grandstanding with you, isn’t it?

– You know it’s a ridiculous suggestion but you want us to reject it so you can accuse us of trying to hide things. Typical dishonest manipulation. You drag the name of the Guardians in the mud, while claiming the moral high ground. It’s quite despicable, really. The only good thing is that people will know not to work with you in future.

– You do not understand teamwork, you do not understand diplomacy (as hard as you try to use your version of what you think is diplomacy), you do not understand how delgation works in a team environment, and you have no idea how to work with a group of VOLUNTEERS. You should have stepped back and allowed others to work on tasking, as they were trying to do, on their free time. But since you have delegation and teamwork issues, that did not happen.

– Now you are giving the impression that the only reason you have taken on a majority of the work was so that you can take control of the group and have the heaviest vote. The fact that you even think it is OK to have 25% of the vote among a group of 11 volunteers is utterly baffling. You just had to drag this crap out in public.

– Again, those numbers were clearly said to be indicative and you keep sticking to them. Why? Because you keep shoving those numbers in peoples faces for the last 2 months.

– bercinho said: Never had anyone claim before I am not a team player. Response: I just watched a bunch of VOLUNTEERS walk away from you Bert.

– You shoved those numbers in peoples faces over and over again to the point where many people cannot stand to deal with you.

– you raped the word volunteers…Bert, you want to rule

– You are, really, just spoiling your public image with this open discussion and I don’t think I would put any more trust in you in the future after reading this pathetic showcase of egos. This whole thread makes me feel the same way as local politics in my country

– in response to Eystein:
This thread has absolutely nothing to do with governance. This thread has everything to do with trust and privacy. Everything said in this thread was said in a private setting where we trusted each other. Now it is dragged out into public. You sound very disingenuous when you try to make this thread about governance when it is simply a dramatic breach of trust.
Now I have a hard time trusting anyone who signed that letter at the top with my private discussions.

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“You so self centered, you’re no earthly good.”

Please provide direct proof in support of your claim.

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Please provide direct proof in support of your claim.

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Gentlemen…please, lets end this now. Everyone here must respect each other and their thoughtful opinions.

We can continue the conversation, but tone it down. At the end of the day YOU can always Agree to Disagree.

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Thanks Crypto. I am more interested in what the community thinks about the original post than I am about the current discussion that is meaningless. It is word against word and reader can make up his own mind on that based on what has been written in the past :slight_smile: In any case thanks to Herr_Rossi for interesting discussion and for Silvije for also thinking it is an interesting proposal and ishleh and all the others for critical but good question. And also thanks to everyone else that is considering to contribute to what is a serious matter about future governance for Cardano.

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i agree…when it becomes so toxic, it no longer becomes meaningful. To those who do not mean to offend but find themselves in a position where others interpret it as offensive, then i ask you to re-construct your thoughts with more caution and carefulness.

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If you haven’t done so, I strongly encourage you to familiarize yourself with the context wrt the excerpts I’ve provided.

This has everything to do with integrity, honesty…traits of character, not a difference of opinion as you minimize it to be.