Cardano Media Guidelines On Official Channels - Your Input Is Desired (Stake Pool Advertising)

English General Discussions
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Because we are the Cardano Foundation and we shape the rules for the platforms we and our Ambassadors operate, trying to keep in mind what is best for a healthy and mature community.

Stakepool advertising hasn’t been allowed since (slightly before) the start of the ITN. The reason why is because we don’t want to create a precedent which states that advertising is ok to do on our platforms. We have more than a thousand SPO’s and we don’t want everyone of them to advertise their pool regardless of how they are willing to do so. In your case this is with videos.

To do this objectively and manageable for us we have decided to formulate it as the rule you now hopefully are aware of and handle it as a zero tolerance policy (which the wording of the rule also insinuates)

I’d agree with saying that we didn’t manage the rules as we needed to do. That being said the rules are still in place, they are currently being revised to make everything more clear and they will be enforced on moving forward.

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  • If my video were had a Dollar Shave Club ad it would be okay, but because I am a stakepool operator I can not post my video with an ad for my stakepool. That makes no sense.

This is about stakepools and nothing else. If it weren’t only about stakepools then the majority of articles and videos need to be removed from the forums. 99% of articles posted on reddit have ads in them, every single YouTube video has ads in them even if the creator turns them off. A reddit post with their stakepool at the bottom would need to be removed as well. A well written Cardano guide that states please delegate to my pool at the end would need to be removed as well.

  • I look forward to the new precedent of this rule being enforced.
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I would imagine one of the ways how to go forward is to really create a guideline that would enable healthy growth of the community made content - which isn’t really for free and takes a lot of time and effort to put together.

However, we also need to maintain appropriate level of relevancy and to a degree ad free space. No one wishes to watch a movie that gets interrupted 10 times to make a reel. We can’t control YouTube advertising platform (e.g.) but we can instil maybe better user experience targeted for official channels where there’s a community reach.

Thinking aloud.

And have like visual guide that would suggest what such best practices could look like -

  • how written formats are appropriate
  • how video formats are appropriate
  • how audio formats are appropriate
  • how image/etc. formats are appropriate, etc.

Would this not be a good path to explore? But this is where specific input is likely most required to add substance and anchor it more meaningfully.

Let’s try to encourage greater participation from other content creators to create some good consensus prior rolling out. I’ve seen very few participate here with suggestions - yet it affects them directly.

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46

I would move that videos posted on the Forum must come with an acceptable minimum of content summary, outlining and timestamps. Very few Cardano issues are important enough to me & others I work with to justify watching a long video without summary, outlining, bookmarking (e.g., YouTube entry point links), or slides.

Also: rather than the bare video links we have often seen here on the Forum, it would be a sign of respect for community members (and therefore a sensible guideline), to post any summary / abstract in the original post, plus possibly the outline, with linked timestamps on the video page itself as we already see from many video producers.

Posting a complete structure of the “value” material in videos should also help with any auditing for compliance with the advertising guidelines, and might even help reduce the partiality of such audits.

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Nice discussion. Now, none of the content creators who receive financial support from the Foundation (many of us in this discussion receive such support) have any plans to mention or thank the Cardano Foundation for it? None?

On the other hand, I read few proposals. And even the only one that was proposed does not take into account that content is no longer a quality content when it promotes a service associated with the content exposed. It is something so basic that everyone should know, especially content creators. This is particularly relevant when talking about such delicate aspects as consensus.

I’m exhausted from watching “quality” tutorials on how to delegate, where the whole video is an allegory to advertising and marketing (MARKETING FUNNEL TACTIC - that is, content deliberately created to get delegates. In other words, promotional content). It’s pathetic to see that - especially coming from Ambassadors, but it is even more pathetic to see that the same creators of these contents criticize with pretentious authority (and indifference to their misconduct) the rational and logical actions of the Foundation. As a moderator, I deal with this issue on a daily basis, and I know why these rules are necessary. I also know that those who benefit from not fulfilling them will complain.

For my part, so that not everything is left in criticism, I propose that:

  1. Any member who receives support from the Foundation, of any kind (whether through the ambassador program, or through funding such as a well-known podcast) should display a banner shown anywhere on the screen that highlights the support of the Foundation, or should explicitly indicate this at the beginning of the content (whether video or text).
  2. All videos promoting stake pools in delegation tutorials be removed from official channels. As well as any video that covers aspects related to staking.
  3. A specific space be allowed to propose changes to the rules of participation. I have many other proposals in mind, but I don’t think this is the right place to put them, because it’s difficult to give them continuity.

Disclaimer: What is said here are personal opinions. I’m not trying to attack or upset anyone. We all have the right to express our opinions freely, as long as it is done with respect.

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48

“that content is no longer a quality content when it promotes a service associated with the content exposed”
I beg to differ. The two are not mutually exclusive. It actually CAN be of quality irrespective of whether it promotes a service or not.

You go on to say “It is something so basic that everyone should know, especially content creators”.
No, it’s not basic. I’m not an SPO, I don’t advertise or market, nor do I post videos about Cardano…I’m just a member of this community but what you said here is, from my standpoint, an extreme view. As such, I don’t see it as “basic” in any way.

Otherwise, your proposal re putting up a disclaimer banner for those people enjoying financial support from the Foundation is great.

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Nailed it - the shitcoin storm is definitely coming

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I approve this message 100% and agree with these guidelines.

Content doesn’t create itself without incentive. There needs to be incentive, and unfortunately, Ambassador compensation is nowhere near enough incentive to enable quality content.

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Unless CF has a contract paying a content creator a living wage then I don’t think CF should be limiting how a person monetizes their content. If a content creator is not providing value and pushing too much advertising they will suffer from people not viewing and stay engaged with their content. Content creators have to please the audience or lose them, and they have to pay their bills, so let content creators and the viewers decide on how much ADs they have.

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I’m wondering how we resolve the new rules once we fix the existing ones that ban advertising. Some kind of vote maybe?

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You say content creators have to please their audience which you imply should limit their ads, however some audiences become enamored by propaganda. An SPO who passionately announces that opinions that disagree with them are simply FUD or shouts that a section of an IOHK blog post is a lie may provide a lot of entertainment, however it seems arguable how much value such content brings to the community.

I believe the motive for creating content should not be to advertise your pool, but rather to show you are willing to put in the hard work and have the skill to create high quality content and in doing so demonstrate your value to the community, which in turn gives the community reason to stake with you. I worry that if we change these incentives we risk incentivizing lower quality content that instead of educating, evangelizes people into ideological groups that care less about the ecosystem and more about their side being right. Community policing of such content seems like it would simply be a shouting match between the different sides.

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Content creators, SPO’s, moderators or in fact anyone here

I welcome you all, because if your here, your not somewhere else.

My thoughts are based around keeping people in the CF project, even if we occasionally disagree.

Something i considered, if i don’t like what your doing, it may be your being more successful than me with your SPool (for clarity i don’t operate one), it may be that you have certain relationships with senior people and i feel i am losing out because of this, it might just be because you broke the current rules, all valid thoughts and there are many more.

However, if your in the system, then defacto IMO your adding value. I would rather your here than not, the world and social media in particular is craving your attention elsewhere, but your here.

I personally try see life and challenges as opportunities, imagine you’ve got someone here in Cardano World, lot’s of people are a bit challenged about how active you are and the success your achieving.
That is adding value to Cardano IMO.
Would i be able tolerate /appreciate someone i was envious of, yes always, because as much as your a pain/competition to maybe something i’m working on, overall we are in this together not working on some other project.

From the thread if i understand correctly, there seems to be accusations of rule breaking and responses with counter accusations/comments

For me, most things work best with less rules, trust in the person and create a culture, that doesn’t mean no rules, clearly that would be anarchy

However, i believe people can, in most part ,be trusted to decide for themselves about who to watch and how to act responsibly.

I use Youtube quite a lot and despite there being millions of content producers, i’m registered to about 40 channels, i made up my own mind as who to follow/watch.

Some YTube content producers are sales biased (so their content has to be really good for me to watch their channel), i’m sort of happy to ‘pay the price’ as it’s otherwise a good channel despite the fact i’m being ‘sold’

I rather we trust people to make up their own mind,

I think the current rules probably need to change and will need to be changed again in the future as we move forward (good principle, allows growth)

Because this debate/discussion is about something as simple as someone putting a plug(s) to their pool in video(s)
This is not allowed, so the moderator has acted in good faith (as per current rules ?)

But impartiality, or even just the hassle of having to ‘police’ the amount of content in the future in Cardano (Think Rick has alluded to this), will surely swamp all the moderators, so the system will become impossible, unless we’ve found a way to use A.I. maybe speak to Ben ?

Why change the rules ?

What was the intention behind the action, i.e. Would it fundamentally damage or harm Cardano, for me if the answer to that is no, then i’m pretty open to any activity, if it’s moving us forward, it’s probably the right action.
If people connect with an SPO, whether they put out content videos or not, that’s up to both parties (the SPO and the delegator), any SPO can do content ( I appreciate this may be easier for some than others as they may have those skills already)
But we all have a choice, for me if someone is ‘smashing it’, i think it raises all participants in Cardano, even if your copying someone else’s example.

If the forum becomes swamped with adverts from various pools, just open up a advert channel, i believe people will watch the adverts from SPO’s who are ‘adding value’ and not just plugging constantly (it becomes self policing)

The rules could be as simple as

  1. Try to categorise your post correctly as per the category list ( Mods can move to ensure correctly placed)
  2. No foul or abusive language
  3. No acts of aggression
    Any other suggestions ?

We could also create a ‘subscription’ option as well, so you only receive posts (if you wish) from IOG/CF etc. and posts from people you wish to see as a priority

If someone doesn’t like what another is doing regarding advertising, they could always do something different themselves, show people a better way, that way we all benefit.

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That’s a wrong narrative being published by folks affected, hundreds of blog posts and youtube links were deleted over past year on telegram in accordance with the rules, in fact - as mentioned earlier, it was clarified further to prevent grey areas ar start of ITN (dec 2019). The fact that the guys didnt even notice it before is purely because they wernt affected untill now.

The place where it wasnt actively done - reddit - was because of lack of reddit moderation activity. Addressing the inconsistency does not constitute to change of rules - imo.

This is already the case (as pointed out by Tommy and Andy - there are dedicated areas for advertisements), but disregarded by many - arguing ‘thats like saying sit in the corner’. In fact it is not very different to trade talks going into trading groups, because there are dedicated sections for it

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Hello all and thanks for participating in this discussion :slight_smile:

Please allow me to add my two lovelaces for the “No ads policy”, from my perspective.
Contrary to some claiming “there have never been any rules” (present and/or communicated), there actually has been a "no advertising policy” since the inception of this forum, as well as all other officially managed Cardano community channels. Whether that be Ads from SPOs, or ads from whatever or whomever. This was set up by @maki.mukai (current IOG), Tom (not with Cardano anymore), including other familiar faces such as Andy and myself for other platforms.
Slightly before ITN in 2019 these rules were further detailed and a line to include “SPO ads”, was added in. As pointed out earlier, this was the result of an enormous amount of “stake to my -insert pool name here-” type of promotions and ads across all channels. Logically, if one reads “No advertising/ref links/promotions allowed”, that obviously includes all stake pool ads and promos. These rules have always been in place, and are quite simple and straightforward.

To go and say “I’m not aware of rules”, and more or less cry wolf about them now, is unfair. Upon joining our platforms everyone agrees to our community “house rules”. (Whether people read them is also one’s own responsibility…)
One doesn’t go into someone’s house that has a sign saying: “No singing allowed here.” to then go ahead and start singing…even if it’s just for a few seconds. It’s really that simple…

However, to further mitigate this new aspect of SPOs in Cardano community history and developments, CF/CM Team has even offered the SPO introduction category. And, given some time, I think it’s fine to consider introducing another new category where Cardano related projects/dApps can introduce their work. (Read: introduction is not a promotion/ad, nor allowing anyone to do just that.)
I personally feel is only fair to provide a meet & greet section with people and projects, where members can then follow the information and further inform themselves about it.
And of course we do want to encourage community members and ambassadors alike, to publish valuable content on our public channels. It helps with education and community building. Many have and still do just this. It creates some exposure to an SPO, without overdoing it.

However, if such introductions (either from SPOs, dApp projects, Cardano projects) include any kind of ads or promotional content that tells or requests members to join here or delegate to…, we’d ask them to edit it out or we will, to the best of our capabilities. So, in case you see such content and think “this doesn’t belong here”, simply flag and we can review it. We can only manage so many things at one time, and with everyone’s help is what will keep this forum active and ‘in check’. :+1:

To return to the main topic, and while this has been brought up and suggested by many already, if one wants to promote his/her things particularly related to Cardano, there are plenty of non-official, community run channels and platforms to go to, that are specifically made and created by members to provide such a place. If this doesn’t exist, then we highly suggest members to create it and invite people to join this channel or platform. This is eventually what decentralization of community is all about. Official channels cannot and should not be used as just another platform for member’s personal or business promotions.

Imagine the legal implications, if we go ahead and allow full throttle advertising and promotions on all of our platforms. Scammers/frauds will pick up on this ‘trend’ and pretend to be someone or something, get people to join their ‘project’, then scam members. Said members could then say: “Hey! Well, wait a minute here, where was this scam allowed to promote itself?” - “Cardano Forum? Telegram? Reddit? Who runs that? Oh, CF runs that, OK well they shouldn’t have facilitated it or let this scam be able to promote itself on their official platform, we’re going to sue CF…” - Not something we want to facilitate, or want to have happen. It’s unfortunately a very realistic example and a scenario. And I can only imagine that at some point this might (will?) even take place…
Now, at one point in the future, one could say “well why don’t we decentralize all these platforms so that ‘everybody can run them’?” - Sure, I can agree that that’s probably the long term vision of many CM team members and Ambassadors alike. But right now, that isn’t the case yet and it is what it is. :slight_smile: I can see some pulling up a .gif that says “Deal with it! :sunglasses:”.

Another option, I think rather simple method to cope with these rules for now, would be that if one really wanted to post on official channels and spread one’s value content, one could create two versions for a video/piece of content; one with ads to post in non-official community run channels, and one without ads for on official channels. (If you keep your ads in the first few seconds/minutes of your piece of content, it should be rather easy to simply cut out this part, then post…)

To finalize: I personally think that simply posting the vids/content pieces without any or actively added ads/promos in them on our public channels, it is already sufficient material for members to see and conclude this belongs to a certain person(s) or brand(s). Members can simply follow and look into the name/channel behind it, and would realize this is made by so and so. Members of community, either new or old, that take an interest in said (video) content can then decide what they want to do. People are perfectly capable of disseminating this kind of information and connecting the dots…:wink:

Just a kind reminder that, it is fine to disagree, but please be courteous when doing so and “agree to disagree” whenever that makes sense, to keep discussions constructive and productive. Cheers!

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I think that is a great idea, to aim towards having a Wiki of thoughts operating as a complete as possible place for FAQ.s/news updates etc. are indexed and listed. I will speak to the team about this. @Eva_Oberholzer

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I fully agree on this.

I would like to add two thoughts.
What is advertising, or rather, when does it become offensive?
First of all: I have always been a proponent of the no-ads opinion. And here is why ( in addition to all mentioned by @Katsumoto)

The pool ticker in the contact handle is in my opinion not an advertisement, but in the course of discussions and conversations an important information from which point of view and with which personal bias a contribution comes.

Where for me advertising has clearly begun

  1. if there is suddenly a break from the actual topic and a reference to your own activities appears (the classic TV commercial break)

  2. any call-to-action communication for your own profit.

I do not see the official channels of the CF as a common good, which is available to all freely and free of charge for personal interests. Contribute yes, skim no. So simple.

A contribution could be that you pay on CF channels for the publication of visibility and lucrativeness of any material with advertising content. And not a little.
But I honestly prefer areas without advertising. Whether it is magazines, radio or TV. Websites, Twitter accounts or influencer channels and podcasts: if I have the impression that everything is there just to sell me something specific, then the whole medium appears to me in a completely different light and the value of the whole product (project) is thus drawn considerably towards sales TV. Cheap! That is not what I want for Cardano.

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Back in 2018-2019 some community members (lead by good old @RobJF) worked on and build up

Due to continued Cardano release delays and some other events and behaviours the project slowly dried out.

As I didn’t want to loose all the content, I offered to host the project on my servers since 2020.

It might deserves a fresh and more responsive design template. But contains a lot of thoughts and lessons learned.

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This is because the rules weren’t being enforced the way that it’s now being interpreted. If you look at my post above. It states that “we will have a zero-tolerance policy going forward”. How is that a narrative that I am pushing? These rules also weren’t being enforced on the Cardano Forum either.

The benefits no one except the moderators, they can now just remove any video they see with an ad.

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This is being unfairly enforced on content creators while people can post articles with advertisements, if you go look at the forums 99% of the articles have ads in them yet none of them are removed.

I tried to shorten my advertisement to 15 seconds and posted it only on the Cardano forum but it was removed.

I mentioned this was a slippery slope because the majority of the content on the internet has advertisements in it. This rule will either be unfairly enforced on content creators or every article, video, and post will be taken down at the discretion of the moderators.

Here are some articles upvoted to the top of reddit with ads:

Here’s another site with an ad: https://thecurrencyanalytics.com/21435/cardano-ada-introduces-beefchain-track-and-trace-solution-for-the-beef-market-certainly-the-steaks-are-high/?utm_campaign=twitter&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter

  • The ad that I got for this site was a gambling ad. We can promote content on the forums with gambling ads but my educational content about Cardano can not include an advertisement for my stakepool.

To give some perspective I make about $10 on average from my videos. The only way for the content to be sustainable is by doing outside ads. People that support Cardano should be able to have ads in their videos and should be able to post to the forums as long as the video brings value and isn’t about the ad. The ad is just the means to keep creating. I wish we lived in a world where you could spend 30+ hours a week on content and you were paid sufficiently without advertising.

Content creators do bring value from the community and should not be limited from posting their content on the forums. If my content was in text format with a “stake to my pool” in the top corner it would stay. The Cardano Foundation should not be in the practice of telling content creators they can’t have ads, how many ads should be in their video, how long the ads should be, when they should do the ads, ect. Content creators should have some input on these rules as it’s who they affect.

The Cardano Foundation's stance on stake pool advertisement
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If I were a SPO (which I am not), I would feel highly offended that the community has had to pull teeth from the CF for things like community delegation strategy, transparency around leadership decisions, etc and yet then the CF tells SPO, once again, you’re on your own, dont come onto Cardano channels with that SPO talk. Also how is CF defending removing content if the provider (i.e. youtube) is the company running the advertisements?

Again, I go back to how is Cardano Foundation ‘driving the adoption of Cardano, Shaping Legislation and commercial standards, growing the global ada community, ensuring stakeholder accountability, and facilitating partnerships’ (which is the stated CF missions). Having this endless circle of a conversation about censorship when it literally has nothing to do with CF mission or driving adoption of the technology forward.

Would love to hear @Frederik_Gregaard POV on this ridiculous conversation that we have been addressing all year so far, and how censoring ‘advertisements’ within content shared on reddit or forums is driving any of the stated missions of CF.

Thank you.

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Again - the ask is to add those in dedicated sections, as indicated by Tommy, Andy Katsumoto, posts are not deleted from dedicated sections, similar to trading discussions. Organising =/= censoring.