God damn. Didn’t think it was possible but you guys have given me even more motivation to do whatever I can to make this project a success.
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Thanks for extracting this from the general telegram channel. Yesterday I was reading there too for the first time and probably also for the last time. Telegram channels seem to attract rude people and people who don’t want to read what has been asked two minutes ago. It’s no fun and a lot of FUD and bullshit spiced with some very interesting information. But altogether my time is to precious to spend hours to search for the information there. I really wonder why Charles takes his time to read through that stuff an loses his patience and good mood doing so.
I’ll stick to the announcement telegram channel and to the forum here where people are much more friendly and information is much better to be found, even after months.
I am with you, telegram is not easy to navigate, Charles has left the general chat and most likely it is from the negativity that is the result of lack of research from the user’s, I admit I see a good use for the channel as it is a preferred means of networking for some, but structured communication on topic fits me much better than the line of post’s that are found on telegram, but the funny thing about telegram is it is kind of like a dipstick where you can measure the activity and see what perspective around the globe is currently, so if you care to visit the general telegram again I imagine you will see me there as it is somewhat like a live feed into the general mood of the underlying community.
It was good to hear Charles speak out against the negativity that surrounds the delas though.
Good luck trying to find any archived info there though, again I am with you on that.
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Why wouldn´t Shelly be pushed back? I am very happy it´s pushed back and it would be great to have it released maybe end of next year (2019) or when the entire crypto market stabilizes a bit.
IMO it is important that we have Shelly released at stable market conditions with relatively realistic ADA prices (it´s highly undervalued now), otherwise the available ADA staking rewards will be worth much less then you can pay off the proposed 1000 staking pools.
If you have 700m ADA staking reward the first year, it´s worth 21m USD now, which would be 21k for each of the 1000 pools per year, 1750 USD per month, before taxes!
That´s very small, impossible incentive to operate a pool (and you have to give staking rewards to the wallets who stake with your pool), of course maybe the same group operates 50 of them, then we have a different story.
But here comes the decentralization problem, we do want enough independent (how to check this!?) pools as it is the main mesaure of the decentralization factor of the Cardano infrastructure and not couple of groups behind it.
As in the first few years the transactions on the Cardano Blockchain will be still relatively low as adaptation (real business Use Cases running on Cardano) is low, there won´t likely be magnitudes more income from that source.
When Cardano was at 1 USD, that would have been a good time to release Shelly of course if it stays at that price level.
So it has to be certain that Shelly release increases the price enough that it´s worth for 500-1000 pool operators to run the infrastructure.
At a bear market like today and being bound to the BTC price so much, it would be extreme risk to release Shelly now. Basically whatever good news, major improvement or great partnership you would announce it wouldn´t likely effect the price, especially not exponentially to raise it to the moon level (beyond 0.5 USD).
And once Shelly is released there is really no way back, you press the big red button and the staking incentives will be spent over the next decade or so.
IMO it would be nice if IOHK would continue operate the Cardano infrastructure until the crypto market stabilizes and ADA stably recovers at higher price levels. In the meantime they may showcase that Shelly works under all circumstances on the Testnet to proove that the decentralized technology & PoS capability is fully ready, maybe have it even audited by independent 3rd parties and run some hacker bounty programs.
The problem may be that Coinbase might not want to list Cardano until Shelly, while the “price pump” of Coinbase is one, which might trigger ADA to a level where it´s efficient to release Shelly…
I believe it is in the best interest of Cardano to delay Shelly not only as long as the technology is bulletproof, but also until the crypto market steps up one or two maturity levels and maybe even we get finally some significant institutional investment (bringing higher prices and more stability), which might be attracted with the BTC ETFs and other regulatory & compliance events.
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What I meant by “cheap cryptos” is the all cryptos market which is in “sold” mode. Like ADA, there few more cryptos with good projects which cost less than $1, it will be good to invest $100 in some of them.
Etherium-$91.85
EOS-2.05
AION-.126
NEO-6.29
TRON-.0134
ICON-.0132
Wanchain-.348
LISK-1.24
TREZOS-.358
A lot of those are above a buck, even in this market. Let’s face it, the real issue is that we’re a smart contract platform that doesn’t have smart contracts yet. We’re a bit of a snob of the crypto world and I can admit that it hurts my pride that those “inferior” projects are valued higher than 
We cannot delay for the sake of the market, it will all even out on its own
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They are “independent” capabilities, the staking and the Smart Contracts.
I highly doubt if Shelly goes live in Q1 and the market goes on bearish we will hit a 0.5 USD …
The market is bearish right now, still a lot of those coins are above a buck.
We must hit Shelly before we get smart contracts. The current value of 
is not base on anything solid, it’s strictly confidence in the team. That confidence will take a major hit if they continuously fail to deliver on a deadline, on purpose or otherwise.
I get that it’s hard, life’s hard…but anyone can create the greatest platform ever when they have all the reasorses and time in world 
. To quote Pacino in Devils Advocate “ I know you got talent, I knew that before you got here its just the other thing I wonder about: Pressure it changes everything some people you squeeze them, they focus others fold, can you summon your talent at will? Can you deliver on a deadline?
Having said that I do believe 
team will deliver in Q1, otherwise I wouldn’t be here.
“Money, that’s the easy part”- work before value
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I completely disagree with you in that point. I believe Shelly should be delivered the time it’s ready for it. Not before in a hurry and not after. I really hope, they leave all politics and market thoughts aside. Cardano is no fair-weather project, it has to live and grow in every weather. If the rewards are not enough for 1000 staking pools to be profitable, so what? Maybe we’ll have 500 or 200 or 100 at the beginning. That’s fine, it will work. And when the price grows, we’ll grow to 1000 pools. There will be crashes in years to come and Cardano will have to face it. Trust the kid. Don’t keep it away from climbing trees. 
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I like this a lot, that’s totally true. There are many more battles ahead, let’s not get stuck on this hurtle
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Well just imagine from the staking pool operator side. Don´t get me wrong I understand from the “investors / speculators” side.
You have to plan your expenses. investment and when within a year there is a risk of loosing such value of the staking rewards, your main income, then it´s hard to plan and commit the initial investment.
You can´t separate the market price from the value of staking incentives available and as a consequence the number of sustainable pools operable equal to the factor of decentralization, they are all related. Factor of decentralization will impact the reputation, rating, review so the price of Cardano and things like Coinbase listing.
Having 100 pools to start with might end up to be less decentralized then today having IOHK run 1000 nodes. IOHK = fully trusted and financialy incentivized party, pool operators = non-trusted, though financially incentivized to behave good parties
The worst thing that could happen that you start with 100 nodes and 50 shuts down as the market further drops.
Not sure how this will play out, but it´s not only a technology decision and surge to release Shelly I believe, there are many other dependent factors you can´t ignore.
You could really build Shelly, show, prove that it works on the Testnet, have it audited, have hackers try to break it for bounty, show that you have the tech ready and release it at the right time… you don´t have to setup a nuclear bomb, you can do some test explosions and the world will believe you have the tech and will take you serious enough.
Aren’t they doing that already?
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Of course.
But it´s not fully released on Testnet with all it´s capabilities as far as I am aware.
It´s still work in progress.
Just finish it on the Testnet, and prove the world (have MIT prepare an assessment report!) that your tech works under the desired conditions and meets all security and other qualities expected from a PoS infrastructure.
Then release when the time is right and the market is ready to make sure it will have the best possible outcome.
I would personally go this way 
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Sure. But what happens when it’s too expensive to buy a new server for the staking pool? People will just run their old machine which runs 24h either way. Maybe they will not be as reliable, maybe they will be slower but I’m sure Cardano will be fine independent of it’s price.
If Cardano can not be run efficiently in a bear market then there’s something wrong with the whole concept.
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I fear that all staking pools will run on AWS …
But costs are not only infrastructure related, but manpower dependant, maintenance, marketing, “customer service?”, etc.
Cardano should be able to run on a bear market, when there is a bit more adoption. To run in a bear market, with super low prices, low adoption and high decentralization seems only possible as it´s happening today, the cost is covered by IOHK, which is much better for scaling reasons now then when it´s divided to 100 - 1000 entities.
But let´s see, the only thing I claim here is that when to release Shelly tech from Testnet to Production could depend on the market conditions, regulatory & compliance questions and many other aspects, which highly impact how successful it will be.
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I think there are way to many people who want to develop on the platform for them to deliberately hold Shelly up regardless of the state of the market.
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Relax take the deep breathe…inhale hmmmm exhale…think these way the developer in the cardano protocol now are coding the line out of the box that the previous protocol don’t have it’s hard to make a non existing code line that solved the problem most of the blockchain exist.
But Shelly is about decentralization and not about Smart Contracts.
What I mean you could release Smart Contracts (Plutus, Marlowe, Solidity, etc. on top of IELE) having the network still not decentralized but run by IHOK as it is today.
I don´t see why they should have to go together, can someone clarify?
I feel like the answer to this quest will be philosophical in nature more
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Maybe technically you could have Goguen release before Shelly but the plan as I’ve always heard it was Shelly first. I would imagine there are technical reasons for this and I agree it would be interesting to hear them.