And you’ve seen this for yourself?
Negus is not the first experienced meditator I’ve heard say this.
Yes, many people deny God’s existence. I am well aware of that.
Not just any people. Specifically people who have trained themselves to experience consciousness more clearly.
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Well where does “consciousness” come from? Where does anything come from into being and existence?
Haven’t had an experience that has completely removed doubt. You certainly begin to see for yourself while practicing. Insights arise but what we’re after is a permanent shift in viewing reality.
We simply don’t know. It can be likened to being shot by a poison arrow and only being concerned about who shot you.
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Would you say you don’t know you’re posting on this forum right now? I mean “don’t know”, is a position that seems to me absolves people from a whole lot of responsibility… in the face of direct evidence to the contrary… in many areas of life, if you know what I mean here…
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I could say I don’t know. I could also say is it important to know where matter and consciousness originates from? Would it bring about any kind of peace?
That information isn’t useful for developing understanding and wisdom. And instead stipulating about something that none of us have been direct witness to is problematic. An “I don’t know” is a perfectly suitable answer.
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God is what is looking through your eyes, my eyes. Your consciousness believes it is separate from God because all of those “I…” thoughts. “The word” is not getting you any closer to God, but is rather distracting from communion with It (God is not some sort of superhuman male). Until one sees past the illusion of thought one will not see the illusion of the ego (what you think you are).
God is in the stillness. If God is omni present, then what is it that prevents us from experiencing God here, now? It’s the distraction of thought and all that thought has produced (everything on the screen). Turning Awareness inward (the stillness underlying thoughts and sensations) is the only spiritual practice needed.
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That’s very … zen! 
If Proverbs or Psalms is the source of all wisdom, then there isn’t any need for any other sources of information, books, or the internet really. I understand the need to evangelize per the faith’s responsibilities and obligations, but without a direct tangible benefit of which you didn’t mention (yet?), it’s simply that, spreading a religious belief / practice that serves to further spread itself.
I’ll drop some thoughts here, for those aware, and also those unaware of the stories from Scripture. Solomon decided to split the baby when confronted with a situation where 2 women claimed a baby was theirs, which was then treated as an act of wisdom because the real mother eventually revealed herself due to pretty natural compassion. Other verses in Proverbs are littered with truisms. I’m not sure if it’s wise or good use of time to constantly reflect on these things. For example, “bad associations spoil useful habits”, yes, if one is in with a less than ideal crowd, they’ll find it easy to mimic or go with the trend, which might overall be worse than going with a crowd that does better things relatively speaking. That should be common sense.
In terms of Psalms, it’s mainly songs praising God, and all the good things. There are some questionable verses though such as Psalm 137:9. Now, I’m not personally for dashing babies against rocks, but some people might be. And one might think I’m taking this verse out of context. But I’m not taking it any more out of context than someone who doesn’t know about the Judeo Christian God reading it would conclude. The likelyhood of someone stepping in and saying “that’s why you need teachers/instructors/pastors/etc” is then opposite of what was suggested, being that these 2 books are sources of all wisdom.
I’m sure there are some places with practical wisdom covered in the many verses of the Bible, and knowledge is knowledge regardless of who communicates it. But I wouldn’t personally recommend it as a way of life or a path of wisdom I want to see this world head towards, where it’s very black and white, us vs them, good vs evil, and one is forced to mentally drop, dismiss historical & archeological evidence, or create excuses, to fit a predisposed narrative regarding the God of the Bible, rather than start with facts and build up a theory and keep testing that theory until it fails, which then a new theory is tested (the scientific method).
At least that’s my opinion, that the Bible is a purely man-made book containing ancient literature. Of course, everyone is free to believe what they want, whether or not it’s objectively true. We’re only humans after all.
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The bible was written by men, yes, and inspired by God. No one can make anyone believe anything, least of all Scripture unless God draws you near him. Best anyone who is saved can do is share the Gospel with them…like it’s done here in under 15 minutes - whatstandard.com. Watch that…It will either lead you into a transformed life, or leave you exactly where you’re at. 
Welcome to Cardano.
Martin
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Hi Martin,
Inspired by God is not verifiable. The only “proof” that it is inspired by God is via circular reasoning, which is a logical fallacy. The bible says it is God-breathed, therefore it is true? Apply the same logic to a sticky note and the fallacy is made more clear. If one starts pointing at external things, like history, archaeology, and all the abundant evidence there is on ancient Mesopotamia, then yes you can correlate some historical events with that which is described in the Bible, but there are many others which do not match, have no evidence (Noah worldwide flood, Jonah’s whale adventures, Moses crossing the red sea with a lot of people). One interesting observation is that many who follow the Bible, would point to one reference of “potential evidence” as definitive proof, but will actively dismiss everything else that goes against the Bible, and with a large paintbrush will claim it’s due to Satan’s influence, inaccurate/tampered evidence or some other vague reason like it’s a lie.
Even recently, I’ve been judged by the result of my research, and not what I researched, how I researched, which things I missed, etc. Nope, just the result. It was not a favourable result, and thus “I was wrong”. I like cryptography, because it pushes the idea that you need to verify things, and do your own research. People who don’t take the very important steps to verify things can lose their property, their life savings, and some, even their entire lives.
I’ve watched the video. People have differing thoughts on the 10 commandments. 4 of the commandments are purely about God and giving only him the glory and worship. The concept of God wasn’t enough, he demanded through those commandments that people need to worship him, do not worship other gods (since it was normal back in the day), keep his Sabbath, etc.
“Thou shalt not kill, commit adultery, steal or bear false witness” sound nice, but isn’t the be all end all. If you kill in self defense, is that defying the law? If you are a doctor/nurse administering a shot or medication for a consenting terminally ill patient who wishes to die, is that defying the law? Adultery involves two consenting adults. Yes that might be still culturally frowned upon even today, but wouldn’t it have been better to put something there forbidding violent crimes, rape and incest? Stealing… I guess the example would be whether or not it’s okay to steal if you need to do it to survive, such as stealing food or water. If circumstances do not permit you to ask, or if you are in a war-torn area, stealing something to survive might be the safest choice for you. Bearing false witness or lying is generally bad, but again, in some situations, lying might save lives, and help escape difficult and terrible circumstances. I’m not saying the opposite is always the right choice, but it is just that, a choice. These laws plainly forbid that choice, and deem them as absolute in badness.
(At 5:37 asking whether the person thinks they would go to heaven or hell)
Have you read up on the problem of evil? Problem of evil - Wikipedia
The premise that Hell exists and humans should suffer there is antithetical to the statement that “God is love”. The God of the Bible is believed to be all loving, all-intelligent, and all-powerful, yet refuses to end suffering, refuses to remove death, refuses to show up and answer questions, is all talk and no action. And the reason for the delay is, because of some dispute over a fruit, obedience and a consequence (death via sin) that God could have reduced to only Adam & Eve, but figured that it should spread to all humans from thereafter because of two inconsistent narratives about how it should and shouldn’t work. ( Ezekiel 18:19-23 - children not to bear results of father vs Romans 5:12-19 - Adam sinned, it spread, we all die + Exodus 20:5–6 - you basically reap the outcomes of the sins of your father). Imagine if the story were true, and God was like “Hmm, Adam and Eve sinned, so they should be punished even though they literally did not know any better - they did not know good or bad prior to eating - but as for their children, since I am loving, they don’t need to inherit sin or die”. It’s a better solution, technically speaking. Others might disagree but I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation to why this way is not a better solution - other than the fact that history has shown death has always been around so it at least couldn’t be “true”.
I’ll share an alternative perspective. This is not my own thoughts, though it gives a nice starting point. Here are two potential guidelines, that might be better than the ones listed.
- Morals should be based on empathy - empathy for the suffering of other human beings.
- The golden rule, which is a humanistic principle: “In everything, do to others what you would have them do to you”
Thanks for the welcome and taking the time to respond and share the link to the video. I’ll share with you a wiki site with a list of logical fallacies, that are general in nature, so you don’t need to worry about 1 John 5:19. You may read at your leisure and who knows, it might lead you into a transformed life, or leave you exactly where you are. At the very least, you’ll have better awareness of these things should you face things like dubious claims, marketing ploys, etc that are pretty abundant in society today, even more so in the crypto sphere.
Have a good one.
Kevin
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3gdeV4Rk9EfL-NyraEGXXwSjDNeMaRoX&si=K5RO7NvLeTf01r2L
many great videos, couple of which are on why does God permit evil and suffering. I think you already know why, has something to do with free will…
Dr Craig, who is the foremost Christian philosopher, tackles all of these questions you raise, thruout the videos and the volumes of literature on the subject he and others like him created (eg Frank Turek, John Lennox, RC Sproul, Norman Geisler).
The reason you are stuck on circular reasoning is because you avoid the major assumption the Bible rests on, that God is real, rather than a figment of your imagination, a projection, etc as well as ignoring the fact that creation is evidence (if not direct proof) of a creator. Just as a book doesn’t write itself, DNA, for example, the most complicated “book” of all didn’t just create itself and is evidence of our Creator.
I agree morals ought to be rooted in empathy meaning, wanting to reduce the suffering of others. That’s a very moral point of view.The question is, why is that good? By what standard? Without God, who is necessarily the author of an objective moral standard, we can’t assert morality to be anything more than an opinion or a societal/cultural (relative) value.
If you go thru the videos I pointed above only, even if you never read things like “Evidence that demands a verdict”, “Mere Christianity” or “The problem of pain”, the above content like the Kalam cosmological argument as well as the moral argument for God ought to tilt you in the right direction, closer to God.
If you get thru all of what I pointed out above, including the books, I suspect some of what you are thinking about God might shift.
I can tell you up until 15 years ago, I was writing the exact same responses and advocating against the existence of God, much as you are right now. At the end of that era of my life, I was faced with a contradiction that nearly led me to commit suicide - I wanted to stop doing something which I knew was hurting another person (not physically btw) but regardless of how strong willed I thought I was, I would end up failing, meaning, I’d still go and do what I wanted, and ended up hurting others and myself in the process.
I became a walking, living contradiction to myself and I couldn’t understand why my actions could not match my intent in this very important (moral, relating to lust) area of life.
It is sad, in retrospect, that I and those I loved had to suffer because of my actions (or inaction), but this is probably the foremost way God will lead us to the knowledge of His existence…by confronting us with our (unspoken, unconfessed) weakness, rooted in one of the many character flaws we all have.
You strike me as extremely intelligent based on how you express yourself. I urge you to continue the inquiry into the question of whether God exists… your very quality of life in the here and now may depend on it, as it will certainly depend on it in the hereafter.
Martin
Hi Martin
you avoid the major assumption the Bible rests on, that God is real.
I avoid making assumptions because if I assume God of the Bible was actually Zeus, but Satan (or the enemy of Zeus) has blinded the minds of believers into thinking he had a different name, then I would reach yet another conclusion. It’s also better in general if people stopped making assumptions, whether it be at the workplace, at home, with friends, because assumptions generally mean you didn’t ask the questions, you didn’t take the time to fully understand the other side of things, because if you did, you wouldn’t have assumed.
I’m not stuck on circular reasoning, I’m simply pointing it out. I’ve been a Christian most of my life, and after honest, prayerful, tearful research, I did the difficult thing, which was to leave my somewhat comfortable life of delusion and see reality for what it truly is. I understand and appreciate your desire to help a lost sheep, but it’s misplaced energy and effort. I’ll address some points quickly and move on, as I have discussed this topic in great detail and time and I feel the exhaustion from the apologetic arguments.
as ignoring the fact that creation is evidence (if not direct proof) of a creator
I was writing the exact same responses and advocating against the existence of God, much as you are right now.
This is an argument I see time and time again. “In my experience, I have done X Y and Z, therefore my conclusion must be correct”. This has generally been used with regards to which is the correct religion, after participating in many previous false religions. I do not believe we are on the same path at all, despite having some shared points of view (e.g. most people see bananas the same way, a yellowish fruit)
I do not argue for or against the existence of a God who might have created everything. But from my own research, the God of the Bible cannot be the creator and all loving and this and that as described in the Bible. The Bible has flaws, and your assumption that it cannot, is one of the reasons why many people create excuses, and flawed reasoning and assumptions, to prove something is true.
Free will is interesting as a concept. In the Bible however, free will doesn’t actually mean freedom. It means if you choose to not follow in the way of God, whether it be to chop wood on the Sabbath, you would be punished with death. Sounds fair right? So I understand the fear of thinking that alternative explanations exist.
I do not wish to be closer to God. People have posed arguments saying that unlike animals, humans have this natural desire to worship something, someone, ah, God, therefore he must exist. I do not have such desires or feelings. My history on reflection shows that I was doing what was expected, and whilst I truly did believe, it wasn’t based on facts and evidence, but assumptions and expectations - hope if you will.
At the end of that era of my life, I was faced with a contradiction that nearly led me to commit suicide
Yeah, many people are lured into religion when they are at their most vulnerable state. I wouldn’t blame you for having come into contact with Christianity or similar during these times.
I became a walking, living contradiction to myself
Interestingly this is the very reason I started to honestly study and look at what is true and what is perceived to be true. I won’t go into detail here, you can do your own research. But ultimately, I could not pretend to be a Christian anymore, it goes against my values of having integrity, as well as being honest to myself and others around me.
I urge you to continue the inquiry into the question of whether God exists
Of what benefit is that to me? I have seen the suffering caused by religion. The conflict, the debates and arguments on the smallest of things that ultimately do not mean much - given the whole thing is a story, on example being whether or not humans will live again forever on Earth or Heaven, whether death is the end or we have souls, etc. It’s interesting to talk about sure, up to a point. I find no value in it. To me, it’s like watching a superhero movie and believing it’s real, and arguing that they exist, and building your life around it, and arguing with people who disagree. I do not discount some of the benefits religion has brought about, namely community, shared values, and in some cases, an expectation / duty to help others in need / poverty, etc. But you can do those things without religion. You can do those things without reading a book which isn’t just about that, but also pointing people to worship a God who is okay with killing women children and babies - because they were guilty by association I guess? (See Joshua’s conquest on Ai and surrounding nations)
I do not deny we all have flaws, which is ultimately things we could improve upon but have not yet or choose not to improve relative to the expectation of others around us. I do not need an ancient book to dictate why I feel a certain way, and what I should be doing.
Thanks for your response, I politely decline to discuss this further as this is not the forum for this, and I have said plenty already. I would prefer to personally make the world a better place based on reality, rather than hopes, dreams and assumptions.
For more interesting topics of discussion, one can visit the academic section on Reddit: Reddit - Dive into anything
Kevin
I’d love that hear your story of how you arrived at the conclusion that the Judeo Christian God and ethic is false. You are correct, this isn’t the forum. You can reach me on Skype - search for me by email: martin@naskovski.info. It’s always fun to listen to deconstructionists and I am genuinely interested in what was the triggering event for you.
Martin
I learned how to meditate from this lady.
I do this first thing every morning when I wake.
That’s the second thing I do in the morning after meditation.
I love to slowly recite Luke 11, Matthew 22:36-40, Proverbs 3:5-6, and Psalm 23 from memory. The concentration required to recall the words pushes all other thoughts from my mind leaving me to appreciate the meaning of each sentence.
I am pretty sure Jesus feels the same way about religion. Check out Luke 11: 37-54
Everybody is different, but for me, meditating in a state of appreciation for all my blessings is the best possible prayer.
After quieting the mind I take great pleasure in watching my thoughts pass by. Some of those thoughts create good feelings as I notice them. I accept these thoughts as the ones that come from God. I spend time appreciating these. Other thoughts which pass by do not feel good as I notice them. I dismiss these as having origins in the material world.
I must not be practicing properly because I enjoy the presence of God as I meditate and I feel no hurry to accomplish anything because I sense the immortality of my soul.
While I love God and Christ, I can’t imagine they are limited to Christianity.
Gödel’s incompleteness theorems deal with formal axiomatic systems, like those used in mathematics. These systems start with basic truths (axioms) and use logic to derive more truths (theorems).
The first theorem states that any sufficiently powerful system (one that can handle basic arithmetic) will always have true statements that cannot be proven using the system’s own axioms and logic.
In much the same way, I feel that the existence of God is something which is true but can’t be proven to others, rather only to the self. Perhaps the question of whether or not God exists is not a helpful question to ask. How about this question instead - What happens to your life when you come to know with every part of your being that God truly does exist and that he loves you and everybody else too? And oh, by the way, your not going to die. From personal experience I can tell you that my life is better for knowing this.
One well known Zero Knowledge Proof as seen here which demonstrates that two items are different without revealing what the items are to the verifier is to allow the verifier control over switching the two items without allowing the verifier to see the items. The prover can see the items but does not know if the verifier has switched them or not. The verifier will switch the items (or not) and then ask the prover if the items were switched. Since the prover can see the items, the prover should be able to tell if the items were switched assuming that the items are different. This process is repeated several times. If the prover can tell every time whether or not the items have been switched, then it is proven to the verifier that the items are indeed different even though the verifier has not seen the items.
I will ask you now, how many times does one need to see miracles before accepting that God as real? Everyone needs to answer this question for themselves. I think there is no right or wrong answer - I have reason to believe God loves you just the same whether you can see him by his miracles or not. For me the answer is “enough”. I have seen enough miracles to know that God is real, that he loves all of us, and that none of us can experience our own death. I am not trying to convince anyone of this. I am only sharing my own joy with all of you.
Who has seen the wind?
Neither I nor you:
But when the leaves hang trembling,
The wind is passing through.
Who has seen the wind?
Neither you nor I:
But when the trees bow down,
The wind is passing by.
Christina Rossetti
If we’re talking about the Biblical God then you would feel hopeful, happy, content with what you currently have despite whether or not you have an abundance or not much at all, and would be obligated to share in preaching about God and spread the Biblical message of hope. But you would also feel tired, doubtful, expecting but not getting. You might have an unhealthy relationship with concepts such as sex, relationships, men/women. Others might be inclined to push their understanding of “Bible truths”, which then causes sects and disputes. Some might find balance in seeing all the wrath and love and humanness of God, whilst at the same time denying God is just like man. People reach a point where if they compared the acts of God in the Bible to someone else performing them, it would be horrific, cruel and not love - yet, when biblical God does it, it is love and compassion and mercy and justice.
How many times does one need to see miracles before accepting that God as real
You’re correct in that the choice to believe ultimately rests in the person at the end. I’ve experienced many people where they claim any good that has happened in life for them is from God, and anything negative is either from Satan, or God not allowing those things to come to them yet. Over the years, I have seen how this way of thinking dismisses the good actions of someone else, minimising it, and diverts it to praise for God. How does one distinguish between a miracle, a coincidence and pure luck, or something that happened but is not yet understood? I admit, I’ve clicked on your link but it’s too long and I do not have the time to read it. If you believe, good for you. The miracles described in the Bible were only recorded, the same way a writer records their fiction stories. That is not proof. If I say 99 things that are true, it does not mean the 100th thing I say is true. It might give some confidence in it’s likelyhood sure, based on trust, but it does not mean that it is going to be true. If the Biblical miracles are what convinces you, then why doesn’t God continue to do them? Why did he stop? If he stopped for a reason, and people don’t need miracles to believe, then why do them in the first place?
Your reference to the poem of the wind is interesting. You point at something we cannot see, yet we feel, we know it’s there. Over time, science has improved to a point where we can visually record and see wind, to calculate weather patterns and movements and more confidently prepare for situations where disaster might occur. However, has science over time come to realise that there is a God? More proof that God, in particular the Judeo Christian God exists? The evidence points the other way.
Anyways, I’ve made myself pretty clear. My life is better without this delusion, and I only hope people do their due diligence before following any sort of faith. If you find happiness in it, that’s great. As long as you aren’t harming anyone and you are doing your own thing, I don’t have any issues with it.
I’d love that hear your story of how you arrived at the conclusion that the Judeo Christian God and ethic is false … It’s always fun to listen to deconstructionists and I am genuinely interested in what was the triggering event for you.
I’ve already listed some of my points. It’s never “an event that triggered and broke down everything”. I took it seriously and started the research. I compared many sources, and assessed the evidence and facts for what they are, and reached a conclusion. I don’t think it’s fun. If anything it is one of the most unfun, brutally honest things I have gone through, but if I had the choice between blissful ignorance and having to go through all that again, I would choose to go through all that again. The delusion is no joke. I am going to decline. I’m not interested in sharing my deconstruction with strangers on the internet. If you want to have some fun(??), you can read stories here - Reddit - Dive into anything on /r/exchristian.
I am not trying to convince anyone of this. I am only sharing my own joy with all of you.
You aren’t being honest. You are actively trying to convince people by sharing this.
To compare, if a sales rep talks about a product, but tells you they aren’t trying to sell you anything, but goes on to say how good the product is and that you should think about the product, would you think they are trying to sell you the product?
Anyways, I should have known better than to start this discussion. I won’t be responding further on this topic.
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Hello @keevan
Welcome to the forum. 
Thank you for taking your time to thoughtfully explain and debate your points. I really enjoyed reading this discussion.
I feel the same way. 
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